Public Prayer

Is public prayer okay?

  • No; Christ forbids it explicitly.

  • Only if the public aspect is unintentional.

  • As long as the prayer is not *just* to be seen.

  • I don't know.


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LouisBooth

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"I think the decision to meet at a flagpole is itself mildly questionable; even without any formal census-taking, everyone *will* see them, and if you think about it, a flagpole is generally "

So? they are not doing it to be seen. Christ prayed in public many many times and for you to point fingers and say, you're doing this to be seen, when they have expressly said they do not is quite terrible.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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I tend to pray in private, to me a prayer is a personal conversation between me and God and I would rather not be interupted. I also feel that praying in a church or with a group of believers in a secluded area is okay, but the gathering at flagpoles and such that has been popular recently I do not approve of.

Blessings can be more public, but going around blessing buildings and such that you feel are evil or some such thing is often yet another attention getting ploy and I do not approve of that.

But these to me are just personal convictions.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
That's the ponit LW, they aren't expressly for attention getting.

If you have found a group that was not doing it to get attention then you are blessed. Every group that I have run into has been doing it to "show their faith to heathans" or some such thing. At best I think of the practice as ineffective witnessing, at worst it is just what Jesus warned about.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I think the decision to meet at a flagpole is itself mildly questionable; even without any formal census-taking, everyone *will* see them, and if you think about it, a flagpole is generally "

So? they are not doing it to be seen. Christ prayed in public many many times and for you to point fingers and say, you're doing this to be seen, when they have expressly said they do not is quite terrible.

It's not enough to not be actively pursuing evil; we should put some minimal effort into avoiding it. It would be very easy to pray in a less public place.

Furthermore, event sponsors and students alike frequently talk about how important it is to "make a stand" or "make a show of faith". That's clearly about being seen.

Could you identify one of these times when Christ *prayed* in public? He blessed things, but when He prayed, He went away from others to do it, repeatedly.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
That's the ponit LW, they aren't expressly for attention getting.

---
Sara VanDerWerf said there has been prayer at the pole in all of her 11 years as a math teacher at the school.

"I think it's great for students to come together once a year and just share a common belief," she said. "It's a quiet, visible thing for people to see."
---

"A visible thing for people to see".

Hmm.

---
"They may not know Christ. It's an opportunity to let them know that there are other Christians out there. It takes courage for these students to stand out."
---

Hmm.

Sure sounds to me like they want to be seen, and they want to show off.

There's lots of pages about how these groups are available for radio interviews, news coverage, and other things like that.

I think you're denying reality here, Louis. While there may be people here who are not primarily taking this action to be seen, the fact is, most of these people are specifically talking about "being seen" as a primary goal of the event.

Once again, I ask you: If it's not about being seen, why is it at the single most visible and public place available anywhere near the school? Why do they issue *PRESS RELEASES*?

If you're in a public place, and it occurs to you to pray, fine; that happens.

If you are planning to pray, and you *GO TO A PUBLIC PLACE TO DO IT*, that's not fine; the decision to go to a public place is specifically about being seen.
 
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Stormy

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IMO

Prayer does not need to be hidden. I prefer a quiet place to speak with God alone. But I do not believe that open prayer is wrong if it is done in sincerity. I think God would be very pleased if all the peoples upon Earth dropped to their knees together and began to pray.

It upsets me that everything can come out of the closet. But at the same time there is a pull to keep the Christians out of view.

The world is taking on a very "ugly" face. :(
 
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Stormy

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If you are planning to pray, and you *GO TO A PUBLIC PLACE TO DO IT*, that's not fine; the decision to go to a public place is specifically about being seen.


I do not agree! It is much more than being seen!

It is about being able to worship your God without the control of man!!!

It is not saying, "LOOK at me!!!" It is saying, "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!"
 
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SavedByGrace3

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What would Jesus say today? I do not know about other countries, but in the USA society is very closed and negative concerning public prayer. It is very rare to see anyone pray over a meal in a public resturant. It is illegal to have organized prayer in pubic events like football games and graduation exercises. Because of this general distaste for religion in the USA, you are more likely to endure public scorn than praise.

So what would Jesus say today? I think  He would be more apt to ask us why we are ashamed or afraid of expressing our faith in Him in public. This is a something you have to work out with Him. Are you afraid of expressing your faith in public and just using this religious sounding argument to avoid the embarrassment?

Hmmmm?
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Stormy
I do not agree! It is much more than being seen!

It is about being able to worship your God without the control of man!!!

It is not saying, "LOOK at me!!!" It is saying, "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!"

But calling attention is still calling attention. I don't need to go out of my way to call attention to my prayers to assert my right to pray.

I'm not worried about the limitations allegedly placed on usby man's law; in practice, it's never gotten beyond "please don't involve other people in your prayer", or, if it has, no one has been able to find a single documented case yet... and any such case would show a flagrant violation of the law on the subject, which says you can pray if you want to.

I *am* worried about the restrictions placed on us by God, because I think we should follow them, and He was quite clear about it; you should not pray with the intention that other people see you doing it.
 
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Andrew

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Why not, if led by the HS to do so.

Smith Wigglesworth prayed in public a lot. He didnt care.

eg once while on a train, he saw this lady crying. He asked her why. She said she was going to the hospital to amputuate her leg. He dropped to his knees, laid hands on her infected leg and prayed. the rest is history.
 
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seebs

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Once again, that was praying because of a specific need that might not be relevant later. He didn't take the lady to a public place to pray for her; he happened to discover that she needed prayer, while they were in a public place.

He didn't go out of his way to say "hey, everyone, I'm about to pray", or issue press releases.
 
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ZiSunka

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Originally posted by Andrew
Why not, if led by the HS to do so.

Smith Wigglesworth prayed in public a lot. He didnt care.

eg once while on a train, he saw this lady crying. He asked her why. She said she was going to the hospital to amputuate her leg. He dropped to his knees, laid hands on her infected leg and prayed. the rest is history.

I understand from very good sources that Smith Wigglesworth is a fictional character created by a preacher for the purpose of giving his congregation an interesting hero to emulate. He took the name of a plumber who had once worked for him and acribed to him miraculous preaching and healing powers so that the people would believe in divine healing.

Wiggleworth is often quoted as saying that healing could not take place in this town or that town or in the presence of this person or that person. Why? Was his God too weak to perform miracles in Leeds in the presence of a policamen? Or was it that all the stuff ascribed to Wiggleworth is fiction?

Why not quote the real doings of a real person, instead of a character from fiction?
 
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DaveKerwin

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I don't see why everyone is bashing SYATP, have any of you acutaly participated?I remember doing it one year in high school, we finished about fifteen minutes before school started, and no one saw us. We were behind a ton of bushes anyway. The point is not to just be seen, the point is to have the christians come together, pray, and claim their campus for Jesus Christ. I have seen many positive outcomes from this event, and have never heard it described as a way to get attention by praying.

In terms of public prayer, I am not sure. I have never thought too much about it, I like praying when there is a need, regardless of where and when.
 
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seebs

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My concern is that, when you have events that put out press releases and invite news media, and rumors of kids being harassed for expressing disinterest, it starts sounding a lot more like the kind of praying-to-be-seen we're warned about.

I was out of school before the whole thing was started. At the time, I wouldn't have gone because I was pretty repulsed by the in-your-face attitude I felt Christians were demonstrating. Now, I wouldn't go because I think it's inappropriate to pick a public and visible place to pray. ("Behind a ton of bushes" is unusual, and makes it much more reasonable IMHO)
 
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DaveKerwin

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Originally posted by seebs
My concern is that, when you have events that put out press releases and invite news media, and rumors of kids being harassed for expressing disinterest, it starts sounding a lot more like the kind of praying-to-be-seen we're warned about.

I was out of school before the whole thing was started. At the time, I wouldn't have gone because I was pretty repulsed by the in-your-face attitude I felt Christians were demonstrating. Now, I wouldn't go because I think it's inappropriate to pick a public and visible place to pray. ("Behind a ton of bushes" is unusual, and makes it much more reasonable IMHO)

I don't know anything about press and media involved with SYATP. This event is student run, student organized, and student lead. I disagree that students do this to be seen. Maybe christians need an in your face attitude. Maybe people are dying without Jesus Christ and something needs to be done about it. I don't see prayer in public as innapropriate. I was ashamed of my faith when I was a junior in high school, and I didn't do SYATP because I was afraid of what the other kids would think, because I figured some people would see me out there BY MYSELF and ask what I was doing. Senior year, same thing happened, except this time I left a guy out there by himself in the rain. Yeah, I was ashamed of the gospel. I went the following year to support a school that had only one or two people committed to being there. It was nothing like you are describing. I find SYATP to be a strong witness to the faith at schools around the world. I have heard testimonies of students who have shared Christ with others on that day, when their peers asked what that prayer at the pole thing was all about.
 
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seebs

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I don't think we need an in-your-face attitude, simply because Jesus went out of His way to condemn it in prayer.

If you do a search on "see you at the pole press release", you'll find some.

Basically, this is one of the cases where "I think this will have good effects" is not enough to convince me to do something that strikes me as contradicting clear instructions.

I can understand how you could conclude that *you* don't do it to be seen... but it's hard to say that students don't do it to be seen when they talk about how cool it is that all these people see them, and they're going somewhere special to pray, and they picked a spot that's very visible.
 
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LouisBooth

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"I can understand how you could conclude that *you* don't do it to be seen... but it's hard to say that students don't do it to be seen when they talk about how cool it is that all these people see them, and they're going somewhere special to pray, and they picked a spot that's very visible."

Seebs, we already covered this. Christ's instructions were not to pray in public if you're doing to to "act" rigtheous and are not. That's made very clear in his example. the guy in the example prayed, "thanks for not making me like these other slobs." Seebs do you not understand what christ was saying? He was NOT saying don't pray in public.
 
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Andrew

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"I understand from very good sources that Smith Wigglesworth is a fictional character created by a preacher for the purpose of giving his congregation an interesting hero to emulate."

and so was Jesus, John G Lake, TL Osborn, Mariah Woodworth Etter?*LOL* That's ridiculous. I dun know where you got your sources from. sure, when they cant accept something, just make up something. *LOL
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I don't know anything about press and media involved with SYATP. This event is student run, student organized, and student lead. I disagree that students do this to be seen. Maybe christians need an in your face attitude. Maybe people are dying without Jesus Christ and something needs to be done about it. I don't see prayer in public as innapropriate. I was ashamed of my faith when I was a junior in high school, and I didn't do SYATP because I was afraid of what the other kids would think, because I figured some people would see me out there BY MYSELF and ask what I was doing. Senior year, same thing happened, except this time I left a guy out there by himself in the rain. Yeah, I was ashamed of the gospel. I went the following year to support a school that had only one or two people committed to being there. It was nothing like you are describing. I find SYATP to be a strong witness to the faith at schools around the world. I have heard testimonies of students who have shared Christ with others on that day, when their peers asked what that prayer at the pole thing was all about.

An in-your-face attitude makes people think Christians are nosy know-it-alls and will not convince them that Christ has died for them. Witness by being selfless, compassionate, full of integrity and beyond criticism. It is then that people will see Christ in you. Mother Teresa's caring smile is far more powerful than any preacher can ever become.

I just pray that through the grace of God I will such a beacon of His light.
 
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