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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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sfs

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and what this suppose prediction? explain more because so far im not sure im follow you.
I explained, with plots, in post #265. If there are details there you don't understand, ask.
also prove that you predicted it before you get the data.
I can't prove that I predicted it -- you'll have to take my word that I was planning on doing exactly that analysis but somebody else did it first. The people who wrote the paper (it was one of Svante Pääbo's papers) certainly expected to find this pattern.
the creation model predict that we will find evidence for design.
That's an entirely subjective conclusion. "Looks designed to me" is not an objective test of a hypothesis.
the creation model predict that we will find many examples of non-hierarchy in nature.
Really? Why? How does it differ from common descent in this regard? Does creationism predict that examples like this will have different molecular mechanisms in different parts of the tree or the same mechanisms? How does that compare with the prediction of common descent for the same cases?
 
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tas8831

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The tree itself is an assumption based upon some similarities that are found. We find similarities in life therefore these similarities are supposed to be evidence. That is an assumption. That is speculation. I say similarities are evidence of common design, the building blocks of life as it were that God used to create all things after it's own kind.
So, again, you did not bother to even look at the site - or perhaps you just looked at the clickable diagram on the page and did not click anything. But you could have scrolled down to see the list of hundreds of publications used to make the trees.

The fact that you mention"similarities" proves that you do not understand the methods or know about any of the data used to reconstruct phylogenetic trees.

Here is a hint - similarities are certainly informative, but it is the patterns or shared, unique characters that are indicative of descent. And this has, in fact, based on tested methods:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



So once again, a creationist, ignorant of the science involved, has taken a layman's position on a subject and presented it as an actual argument. And failed, utterly.
 
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Subduction Zone

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There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, including marsupials, that disproves or denies creation.
Sorry but this is a nonsensical statement that is meaningless. We have evidence for scientific evidence for evolution. There is no scientific evidence for creationism.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Howdy subby my dear, then why seek a discussion with me!

I have hope for you :). This is regardless of our previous discussion and my opinion of you.

Wow you didnt call me dishonest yet!

Anways :)

I am merely correcting your continual errors.
You made the below statement to waggles




"There is no evidence for biblical creation. You will probably agree that there is no evidence for pixies. Since there is no evidence for pixies I do not tend to believe in them. Do you believe in pixies?"

You made a category error my dear. :)

It is a semantic or ontological error in which things belonging to a particular category are presented as if they belong to a different category.

The Bible is not folklore. The Bible is a historical document - archeology=science my friend.

No, the Bible is not a historical document, it is a mixture of folklore and claims that are supported to a degree by archaeology. It is not scientific in any way at all. So once again you failed.

Im.trying to decide if this is a strawman or a loaded question. You are exaggerating and yet you asked a question that had a presumption built into it


Tell me what you think friend :)

As usual you are wrong. Logic is a too that still escapes your comprehension. There was no strawman, there was no presumption.

Faith is a complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

No, that is your definition. That is not what faith in the Bible is.

A child trusts his mother and does not know any better. Reasoning skills are not generally attributable to children.

Yet it is an earned trust. An abused child acts very differently from a child that is not abused.

A kid who thinks the way you described is going to get a burnt hand - earned respect.
]
Wrong again. A parent that has earned trust is going to be respected by its child. Once again logic escapes you.

[quote

If the child trusted his mother (faith), he would not have a burnt hand!!! :) this shows faith being rewarded and his faith/trust in his mother.
[/quote]

Wrong again, and this time you are guilty of trying to redefine faith. Now it looks like you are once again verging on being openly dishonest. I knew it would not take too long. Once again, look at what I said. A child trusts a parent because of an earned trust. Not because of "faith".

Sure one could say if he never touches the stove he will never learn himself. What this does show is that child is not wrong to have faith in its mother and to have listened.



Earned respect!?! Do children think that way? As a 6 uear old kid, did you actually think that way?[/quote]

They don't analyze it, but that is what is actually happening. I know. Logic is beyond your grasp. But children do learn from experience. You seem to have a rather low opinion of children and this is an error on your part.

Does God need to earn your respect?

An extremely poorly formed question. Do you see your error?

Thanks Subby for your reply. :D

No problem. When you see your error in your last question there is hope that you can be honest.
 
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Hieronymus

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So you know how brainwashing really operates.


Not even close.
It's different, but the same thing none the less.
Children being taught a belief you're hardly allowed to doubt, not in a camp, but practically everywhere else.
But your emotional 'arguments' are to be expected, seeing as how your side has nothing concrete to offer.
It was your emotional argument to bring up "Jesus camp".
 
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tas8831

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In examining the world and the universe what evidence is there against creation?
Mechanism.

How did God take ' dust of the ground' and turn it into lipids and carbohydrates and proteins and such?
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's different, but the same thing none the less.

Children being taught a belief you're hardly allowed to doubt, not in a camp, but practically everywhere else.

You are conflating what happened to you as a child with your biblical myths with science. In science opposition is welcomed, but it is almost always shown to be wrong. The scientific method demands that ideas to be testable. In the Bible you are warned about testing the concept of God.

It was your emotional argument to bring up "Jesus camp".

I doubt if his argument was 'emotional'. I will have to go back and take a look at it.

ETA: Nope, it wasn't. He merely mentioned the documentary in response to a false claim of "brainwashing". No emotion involved at all.
 
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tas8831

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There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, including marsupials, that disproves or denies creation.
Right - because with magic, anything is possible. Even contradictory stuff.
 
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tas8831

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It's different, but the same thing none the less.

Not at all.

Children being taught a belief you're hardly allowed to doubt, not in a camp, but practically everywhere else.

Just like gravity, heloocentrism, cell theory, etc.

It was your emotional argument to bring up "Jesus camp".
If so, it was in response to your emotional outburst about 'brainwashing.'

I mean, you must know that blurting out 'BRAINWASHING!' when you have nothing of merit to add is the height of emotionalism, yes?
 
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tas8831

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I don't think he claims it's proven science, so...
Um, wow...

He demands proof of evolution, yet can offer nothing in terms of proof for creationism.

Get it now?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Well, I'm one of the scientists creationists are constantly attacking, so it would seem that they do indeed care. What they don't seem to care about is data.

I feel for you but if others think you are on the wrong side of the fence on this as I do...oh well. It's clearly an important matter to some, and well it should be, but those attacks go both ways.

That's what you *say*.

So there you go.
 
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Kenny'sID

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-_- what do you intend to accomplish by cutting out most of my post that explains the difference between the common use of the term "proof" and what proof is from an academic perspective?

There are other possibilities for how your hand got burned, or how you ended up mistaking it for burned. As long as there are other possibilities, no matter how unlikely they are, you haven't "proven" that it was the stove that burned your hand. Again, this is why asking for "proof" is asking for a standard impossible for science to meet, no matter how good the evidence is. To obtain proof is to not only support a particular conclusion, but it is also to exclude all other possibilities... including ones you aren't personally aware of.


It isn't that we don't have to "prove" evolution. It is that "proof" isn't what you are acting as if it is. You can't even prove to me that you exist, and I am talking to you right now. Additionally, you may have confusion as to what the difference between the theory of evolution and the phenomenon it attempts to explain. Evolution the theory isn't literally that populations of organisms change over time and generations. Evolution the theory is an explanation of HOW and WHY populations of organisms change over time and generations.

As for the process itself, there are plenty of opportunities to observe it if you want. Just Google search "evolution experiment".


Actually, you have it backwards. Science doesn't determine what a "fact" is, facts determine the course of science. Facts are gleaned through observation. For example, we can factually determine that your hand was damaged by it not being in a healthy state. The scientific theory relevant to you burning your hand would be the most evidenced explanation as to how and why it happened, but no scientific theory could guarantee that it is a fully correct explanation. Could get 99.99% certain, but never 100% certain. After all, someone could have cast an evil spell to burn your hand, because magic hasn't been disproven. A ridiculous conclusion? Sure, given the lack of evidence supporting it, but as it hasn't been disproven, it is a possibility nevertheless and has to be recognized. Proof narrows down possibilities to just 1, which is why it only applies to math.

As for the common use of the term "proof", I have no idea what your personal standard of evidence is, so trying to cater to it would be silly. But, I'll provide some evidence for evolution any time you like, as long as that's actually what you are requesting. If you insist on "proof", I'll take it as an unwillingness to learn.


You must have missed it, because it is brought up from time to time, and I am not the only person that brings it up.

I think you already know I disagree with you, but now "Science doesn't determine fact"?

Although I see you went to some trouble to to post details and it may be seen a bit rude on my part not to address it all, it's comments like that, that make me feel it's just not going to do anyone any good.
 
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Speedwell

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I think you already know I disagree with you, but now "Science doesn't determine fact"?

Although I see you went to some trouble to to post details and it may be seen a bit rude on my part not to address it all, it's comments like that, that make me feel it's just not going to do anyone any good.
Yet it seems like a non-controversial statement. Science doesn't determine fact, it attempts to observe and draw conclusions from facts, does it not?
 
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Kenny'sID

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We will agree to disagree, then. Your intransigence to learning about the real world leads one to suspect you enjoy living in your "Truman Show" bubble.

Doesn't look to me like an agreement to disagree.

And the old "you don't understand science" is a consistently over used cop out here. It sounds good and may work for the lazy or someone who cannot back thmselves, that is if you can get someone to buy it, but in reality, all you are saying is I don't agree with some folks conclusions on how they view the natural.

If I don't agree, I must not understand... see? you can't lose with that one, problem is, it's not true, and I've given ever opportunity to prove it, but even the word prove is being twisted now.

So they say science proves nothing, meaning, in reality, people prove nothing, meaning, by your definition of the term proof, it is not physically possible to prove evolution is any more than a theory, and I mean theory at the very best.

Are we all together on that, or do you need to discuss it among yourselves?
 
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TBDude65

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Doesn't look to me like an agreement to disagree.

And the old "you don't understand science" is a consistently over used cop out here. It sounds good and may work for the lazy or someone who cannot back thmselves, that is if you can get someone to buy it, but in reality, all you are saying is I don't agree with some folks conclusions on how they view the natural.

If I don't agree, I must not understand... see? you can't lose with that one, problem is, it's not true, and I've given ever opportunity to prove it, but even the word prove is being twisted now.

So they say science proves nothing, meaning, in reality, people prove nothing, meaning, by your definition of the term proof, it is not physically possible to prove evolution is any more than a theory, and I mean theory at the very best.

Are we all together on that, or do you need to discuss it among yourselves?
What is your background with respect to science? (this is one way of assessing whether or not the "you don't understand science" quip is accurate or not)
 
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Kenny'sID

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Show anything, anywhere where Science has proven something. Science actually works on disproving things, which in turn helps us narrow in on the truth,

I already did, and mentioned it a few times.

No, Science never proves anything, it only ever disproves.

I won't laugh at you, but I won't dignify that with reply either. :)
 
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TBDude65

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Yet it seems like a non-controversial statement. Science doesn't determine fact, it attempts to observe and draw conclusions from facts, does it not?
I like the line from Indiana Jones in "The Last Crusade" to explain this: "Archeology is the search for facts, not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

Science is most definitely in the business of determining facts. That is what we do as scientists, discover facts. But we also spend our time trying to invalidate facts and update facts and improve the accuracy of our facts. Facts are not immutable things. Truth is immutable. Reality is immutable. Facts are what we know presently about reality and truth, and they may be subject to amendment or outright rejection in light of new or revised evidence.
 
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