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proving evolution as just a "theory"

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Camila Smith, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Good luck!
     
  2. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Congrats on this level of irony.
     
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  3. Bugeyedcreepy

    Bugeyedcreepy Well-Known Member

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    I don't presume anything. I accept the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation of the biodiversity of life on this planet, sure - but that's because of the evidence in support of it, not because I presupposed it then looked for reasons to support it afterwards... there's a reason Evolution is taught in science classes almost universally all over the world.
    I don't accept this. I've never read this book and reading the synopsis, it's clear it's a collection of writings, thoughts, ideas and arguments that non-believers have posited throughout the ages, but there's nothing in this that required atheists 'believe' or 'accept' these points, positions or arguments to be true in order to be atheists. If anything, it might be a primer for someone who doesn't understand atheism (or has recently become one/considered becoming one) to grasp the basics, or to understand the history of atheists before they were considered such a thing, but it's not doctrine or required belief and you're mistaken for thinking it is.
    Well, not sure I would call it 'presuppositional belief' - after all, does a newborn baby presuppose it can't talk or is that just the way it is? Anyhoo, let me address what I can:

    • I have no idea of the nature of God(s) and have a myriad of different characteristics explained to me, none of which there seems to be evidence for - but I'm always open to it.
    • All the working models we have (as in collective human knowledge) are based on the natural laws and principles and is therefore meaningful in that we get results that are useful and technology that works because of it. This applies across all sciences and human endeavours of a scientific nature.
    • I have no idea what comes after this life although all the evidence we have indicates that we cease to exist once we undergo brain death. Everything we know about consciousness and mind seems to be intrinsically tied to the physical brain. Things that affect our brain directly affect our mind. We also have no examples of disembodied minds, or spirits (...whatever they are). Of course, would love to know about it if you have anything...
    • Critical thinking and rational discourse is something I've found to be invaluable in creating working models of the reality I experience. I don't disparage peoples personal beliefs, unless I believe it to lead to irrational decisions that could be detrimental to the person carrying the belief, or the people in their care or that they're responsible for. Anti-vaxxers who have children are prime examples...
     
  4. Jimmy D

    Jimmy D Well-Known Member

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    Good luck! He won't accept "links".... or "pictures" or "words" for that matter. :eek:
     
  5. Bugeyedcreepy

    Bugeyedcreepy Well-Known Member

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    ...or "reason", or "logic", or "sense"... or even "reality" it seems.... etc.
     
  6. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Hi, consol! Welcome back! :wave:
     
  7. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Did you go with reality with Thalidomide? Pluto? L'Aquila? Three Mile Island? Chernobyl? the Hindenburg? Apollo I? the Twin Towers? the Titanic? Vioxx? lead paint? mustard gas? asbestos in the ceiling? Agent Orange? LSD? marijuana? eugenics? Y2K? Hale-Bopp? Harmonic Convergence? overpopulation? murder of unborn? and AIDS?

    Just to name a few?
     
  8. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    It's called FAITH.

    Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
     
  9. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I consider it my single greatest single post here ever.

    My Apple Challenge

    My magnum opus, given to me from God as I contemplated how to counter cosmic evolution.
    I don't like using them as such, since they are now so marred by entropy.
    Actually they are, but I prefer not to go that route for obvious reasons.
    No, it is not.
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Bugey,

    This is where you are trying to kid me that you 'don't presume anything', but still 'accept the theory of evolution'.

    What is a theory? It is "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.‘Darwin's theory of evolution" (Oxford dictionaries online 2017. s v theory). So a theory is a supposition, not a proof with evidence. Therefore, you do have a presupposition that the theory of evolution is true 'as the best explanation of the biodiversity of life on this planet'. It has not been proven. If it had been, it would not be called a 'theory'.

    A theory can't be 'the best explanation' until it is tested and the evidence is found to support it. The testing of it also needs the ability to falsify it.

    Your analogy about the new born baby doesn't hold water.

    Yes, there is a reason why evolution is taught nearly universally in the classroom. It's the promotion of dogma without evidence for macroevolution. It comes with lots of fancy dresses to try to 'prove' evolution but it is really bluff, but the younger youth don't get what you are trying to do in the classroom. It also means the God factor of the Creator God is denied and can't be brought into the classroom.

    You do, but you won't accept it. God doesn't believe in atheists. This is what he thinks about the evidence of His existence that you reject. I didn't invent this. It is God's estimate of your ability or inability to see God's attributes in creation and what causes your blindness to them. With this evidence, you are 'without excuse' before God:

    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is for ever praised. Amen.

    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worth while to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practise them (Romans 1:18-32 NIV, emphasis added).
    You have the evidence of God's existence and his eternal power and divine nature right before you every day you live, but you you turn God away. Why? Take a read of verse 18.

    That's what all secularists, humanists, agnostics and atheists do, including yourself.

    I'm sorry I can't respond to all you said. It's bedtime for me, 11.35pm, Monday night.

    If you are 'always open' to the evidence, read that section of Romans 1 again and again and get the understanding of why God does not believe in atheists and that they will be 'without excuse' when they face God in judgment. His existence is screaming at us all in creation.

    Bugey, your presuppositions are too embedded to allow you - at the moment - to consider God's view of the evidence for himself and the creation of the universe.

    Oz
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    However, it is not a leap of faith. It is:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Actually, I don't consider it improper either.

    But for some reason, most others do.

    I've been reported several times for it.

    Why? I don't know. I just chalk it up to [mild] persecution of the saints.
     
  13. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Oz, I'm going to be straightforward with you, because I believe you're being straightforward with me.

    You want to discuss creationism with me?

    I'll mop the floor up with you.

    Creationism is my forte, and in a proper discussion of it, I will ... under no circumstances ... allow the conversation to stray outside of Genesis 1.

    When it comes to creationism, I eat scientists for breakfast.

    So if you're up to it, let's dance.

    But prepare to get educated.
     
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  14. Bugeyedcreepy

    Bugeyedcreepy Well-Known Member

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    ? have you had too much to drink already??
    Why would you use faith for anything? It's the least reliable way to come to the truth about something there is. I can believe anything on faith, I can believe that Amon-Ra carts the Sun across the sky on faith, I can believe there's a refrigerator sized diamond buried in my back yard on faith, I can literally believe anything on faith and exclude it from reason like you do, but I care too much about myself and the people around me to do that. I see no difference between a Jew, Christian and Muslim who all hold their beliefs on faith.

    "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." - Frater Ravus ​

    "'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" - Douglas Adams​
     
  15. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    So far in this thread, I haven't seen you 'eat scientists for breakfast'. Try your approach with the atheists who are on this thread. You'll have grist for your mill there.
     
  17. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Which facts are you referring to?
     
  18. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    ...in journals, not in 50 word quotes.
     
  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Bugey,

    Do you see what happens when you chuck out a large piece of the evidence? You have censored this evidence that definitely provides evidence of what comes after death - destiny for unbelievers and believers in Christ:
    • 'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment' (Heb 9:27 NIV);
    • 'and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.' (Eccl 12:7 NIV);
    • Where did the thief go when death came by crucifixion besides Jesus on the cross? 'Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise' (Luke 23:43 NIV).
    • What happens to the unbelieving who are damned? Jesus could not have been plainer: '‘Then they [unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46 NIV).
    Where will you be one minute after your last breath? You can know?

    See my article, Is hell fair?

    Oz
     
  20. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Indeed -- the reality is that humans are fallible in all things.

    And since you and I are both humans, what does that make us?
     
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