Prove what good and evil are

[quatona]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil: how do you prove that God is evil?

Me? I am still waiting for someone to prove that a God exists, to begin with.

 

[Achilles6129]

Me? I am still waiting for someone to prove that a God exists, to begin with.

Suppose that one does. What would you make of his moral character?

 

[Ken-1122]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil: how do you prove that God is evil?

If behavior "X" is called evil, and someone commits behavior "X", that person would be called evil.

Ken

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Suppose that one does. What would you make of his moral character?

Describe this deity in great detail.

Go.

 

[Chriliman]

What are good and evil? Please supply proof. Thanks.

God can prove that He is good. It's the evil in us that prevents us from accepting His proof, but God can overcome all evil, therefore all will acknowledge God as the One who overcomes all evil.

 

[Gene2memE]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil

Does anyone here actually believe this? Or are you just erecting strawmen to burn?

I'm not sure any Christians believe "God is evil" and I'm not sure that any atheists believe "God is evil", as they lack belief in God and/or the existence of God. Its sort of difficult to believe that something is evil, when you don't believe that something is real.

how do you prove that God is evil?

Well, if you take a literalist interpretation of the Bible, you could use this as evidence for the actions/character of God.
Then you could compile a list of these and compare this to individuals (real or fictional) that are generally considered to be good and evil.
Then, you could come to a value judgement.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If *good* and *evil*were just words we could simply dismiss their existence. But they are not just words. Whatever brings a benefit (material, physical, emotional, or spiritual) to another is good, whereas whatever brings harm to another is evil. Another way to look at this is to see that whatever comes from God is good, whereas whatever comes from Satan is evil.

Life is not that black and white. What about something that benefits one person, but hurts another, yet to not do it would deprive one person for the sake of another? What about something that harms and helps in equal measure, or in non comparable ways?

 

[PsychoSarah]

God can prove that He is good. It's the evil in us that prevents us from accepting His proof, but God can overcome all evil, therefore all will acknowledge God as the One who overcomes all evil.

Things god has done, simplified for humorous effect:
God: hmm, these people are not worshipping me, except for that one family. I don't like how they use the free will I gave them, welp, time to flood the world. (Flood story)

God: That lady looked back. I darn did told her through my angels not to do that. I hope you enjoy being a pillar of salt. (Lot's wife)

God: Sacrifice to me what walks through that door next (knows it will be the guy's daughter, as specified in the story). Now, I know I stopped Abraham from killing his kid that one time, but this time, I'm just gonna let this happen. (Jephthah's Tragic Vow in Judges 11:31 onward)

God: The devil bet me this guy only worshipped me because I made his life great. So, to prove TO THE DEVIL that I'm right, I'm going to let this guy's life just get wrecked, and when he asks me why, give him crap for demanding an explanation. (Job's punishment for a bet. And before you claim it was Job's hubris, think of how many other people died and suffered because of this, and didn't have their lives restored. Is punishing 1 man's hubris worth such a loss?)

I also don't personally view bad things as negated by good ones. Killing someone is not negated by saving a different person.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil: how do you prove that God is evil?

I suppose we could judge him by his fruit.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Excellent question. I suppose I would have to judge based upon the evidence that you had presented. I will say, however, that I think it's something that's impossible to prove.

I'll bet, since an argument for an ethics will mainly be philosophical, and while it may mention a few scientific facts, its strength will be on the logic, not so much on presenting a scientific case that focuses on evidence. Justifying an ethics isn't like establishing the existence of black holes.

If you are expecting an argument heavy in evidence, it is no wonder that you don't expect success. You're looking in the wrong place. That is why I'm asking about the goalposts.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Suppose that one does. What would you make of his moral character?

Quite obviously, that would depend on the characteristics and actions of that God.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil: how do you prove that God is evil?

It's kind of a mission impossible to do that when you are dealing with people who start from the dogmatic premise that god, and everything that god does, is the very definition of "good", and who will reject ANYTHING at face value that doesn't start from that premise.

Think about it....
If your answer to the question "what is good?" is "whatever god does", then how do you even begin to present an argument that concludes that god did a thing that was not good?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What are good and evil? Please supply proof. Thanks.

Seems to me proof is only applicable to analytic questions, such as those of logic and mathematics. As Wittgenstein said, the meaning of words is in their usage. Unless you're going define what would constitute acceptable proof, I don't see how this can be answered.

 

[NightHawkeye]

What are good and evil? Please supply proof. Thanks.

Good and evil are simply the difference between life and death ... the blessing and the cursing. From Deuteronomy:

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.​

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... Another way to look at this is to see that whatever comes from God is good, whereas whatever comes from Satan is evil.

The obvious problem with this is that it's circular - unless an action or event is accompanied by an unequivocal sign of God or Satan, which is rarely claimed these days, they are attributed to God or Satan according to whether they're judged to be good or evil. And if God can act in a way that seems contrary to what you would judge good, or Satan vice-versa, you have no way to tell good from evil (i.e. to distinguish an act of Satan from God 'working in mysterious ways') unless there is an unequivocal scriptural reference for it.

 

[SkyWriting]

What are good and evil? Please supply proof. Thanks.

"Good" is existence, "creation" and "order" which is a predictable process often resulting from intelligence.
Evil is a force that fights these already created good things. It cannot exist on it's own without self destructing.

The proof is that evil cannot create on it's own. It cannot self-exist.

A comical illustration would be the a true evil being would stab
himself in the eye without any apparent motive. The perfect crime.

Truly evil terrorists would detonate each others explosive vests
out of hatred for all others. See? Even terrorists like somebody.

 

[Tree of Life]

What are good and evil? Please supply proof. Thanks.

There's many ways to understand good and evil.

From a normative standpoint, good is everything that conforms with the moral will of God and evil is everything that does not conform with the moral will of God (Psalms 119:160, Psalms 119:68, Psalms 36:5-6, Proverbs 1:7, John 17:17).

From a situational standpoint, good is everything that makes for life and evil is everything that makes for death (Genesis 2:16-17, Deuteronomy 30:19-20).

From an existential standpoint, good is all that proceeds from faith, hope, & love and evil is all that proceeds from unbelief, hatred, & despair (Romans 14:23, 1 John 2:10-11).

 

[Noxot]

Things god has done, simplified for humorous effect:
God: hmm, these people are not worshipping me, except for that one family. I don't like how they use the free will I gave them, welp, time to flood the world. (Flood story)

God: That lady looked back. I darn did told her through my angels not to do that. I hope you enjoy being a pillar of salt. (Lot's wife)

God: Sacrifice to me what walks through that door next (knows it will be the guy's daughter, as specified in the story). Now, I know I stopped Abraham from killing his kid that one time, but this time, I'm just gonna let this happen. (Jephthah's Tragic Vow in Judges 11:31 onward)

God: The devil bet me this guy only worshipped me because I made his life great. So, to prove TO THE DEVIL that I'm right, I'm going to let this guy's life just get wrecked, and when he asks me why, give him crap for demanding an explanation. (Job's punishment for a bet. And before you claim it was Job's hubris, think of how many other people died and suffered because of this, and didn't have their lives restored. Is punishing 1 man's hubris worth such a loss?)

I also don't personally view bad things as negated by good ones. Killing someone is not negated by saving a different person.

all those examples take rigorous spiritual work and searching to understand. this is why so many Christians have a shoddy view of God - they simply don't know how to be properly religious. spiritual knowledge is something that must abide by its own particular disciplines. the bible is cool because it shows religious life which constitutes an interaction of both man and God. it shows both mans perceptions of God and hides mysteries in the oft darkened narratives. 'contemplation' is one of the most fundamental rules of the Christian faith. this is not something that every christian or atheist does and so of course they have an ignorance of how to properly understand the bible. and the very discipline of spiritually understanding the bible opens your eyes to a part of reality that you never saw before but you exist in all the time.



God is good because he is light. this is a thing of reality rather than abstract concepts. light is good because of what it does but it needs something to shine on otherwise it can't show itself. that is just a law of reality. since God made reality we know him through reality by contemplation and we learn for ourselves that God is good. we find a richer reality and taste of it dully, both the cruder and the better parts of it. in experiencing various evil spirits and then experiencing good spirits I see that God is good.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

all those examples take rigorous spiritual work and searching to understand. this is why so many Christians have a shoddy view of God - they simply don't know how to be properly religious.

So... please explain the flood so the Christian god doesn't look horrible.

 

[Achilles6129]

So we come back to the basic question of this thread: what is good, and what is evil? You see, in order to prove your judgments about God you'd first have to prove what good and evil are. Then you could apply them to God. That's why this question is so important, and that's why my answer is that we simply can't know what good and evil are: we need someone in a position to know what they are to tell us. And the only one in that position is the Supreme Being himself.