Prove me wrong Phobes, a challenge, I'm calling you OUT.

Spherical Time · May 30, 2008

To Trevorocity:

In response to your post above, I would point out to those hardcore religious believers that religion is also a lifestyle choice that is protected.

If they need to believe that being gay is a religion in order to allow them to see why "lifestyles" need to be protected, then so be it.

cantata · May 30, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
Maybe you've been through this before... um... but why would you put yourself through that?

Good question. I'd like to say it was for some wonderful reason, like not wanting to be choosing partners based on the shape of their genitals. But actually, it's a bit of an embarrassing answer: I was severely depressed and looking for an explanation, and I decided I was a lesbian (at about 9.30pm on 13th January 2001). I couldn't stop being attracted to men, but I did succeed in learning what's attractive about women.

EnemyPartyII · May 30, 2008

cantata said:
Good question. I'd like to say it was for some wonderful reason, like not wanting to be choosing partners based on the shape of their genitals. But actually, it's a bit of an embarrassing answer: I was severely depressed and looking for an explanation, and I decided I was a lesbian (at about 9.30pm on 13th January 2001). I couldn't stop being attracted to men, but I did succeed in learning what's attractive about women.

I've never heard a story quite like that before. Thanks for sharing.

selfinflikted · May 30, 2008

cantata said:
Hi!

I'll explain how I changed my sexual orientation. I simply spent three years telling myself that I found women attractive. It took a lot of effort. I had to consciously remind myself to think, "That woman is attractive. I am attracted to her." It did not come naturally to me at all in the beginning. However, after three years of doing that, it began to come naturally. Now it's second nature. I guess it's kind of like when you listen to some music you don't really "get" over and over again, and gradually it starts to sound good, to make sense to you.

I'm quite sure I couldn't change back, by the way, but maybe that'd be different for some people. Now I know what there is to like about women, I think it'd be hard to give them up.

Interesting. My first question, obviously, would be why? But secondly, if you were able to change through force of will, why would you say it'd be impossible to change back through force of will? That doesn't make much sense to me.

By the way, while I think this is a very interesting case, I would hardly think this would be considered the "norm" for most if not all other gay/bisexual people.

Trevorocity · May 30, 2008

cantata said:
You think that the fact that people might use it against me is a reason to lie about my sexuality? Er, this from an openly gay man? Sorry, but that's all kinds of double standard.

Facetious:
1.not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2.amusing; humorous.
3.lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person

Trevorocity · May 30, 2008

Spherical Time said:
To Trevorocity:

In response to your post above, I would point out to those hardcore religious believers that religion is also a lifestyle choice that is protected.

If they need to believe that being gay is a religion in order to allow them to see why "lifestyles" need to be protected, then so be it.

You could indeed point that out to them. However you know very well that they would just give you the stinkeye and point a specific finger right back at you.

I've never understood why us gays have never formed our own political party. Nevermind I understand exactly why: no group is ever completely monolithic in terms of their political views. A fourth of all GLBT's are registered Republicans for goodness sake.

My boyfriend and I have decided to form the Militant Gay Fascist Party as a joke.

HaloHope · May 30, 2008

cantata said:
Good question. I'd like to say it was for some wonderful reason, like not wanting to be choosing partners based on the shape of their genitals. But actually, it's a bit of an embarrassing answer: I was severely depressed and looking for an explanation, and I decided I was a lesbian (at about 9.30pm on 13th January 2001). I couldn't stop being attracted to men, but I did succeed in learning what's attractive about women.

Very interesting post this (and the first time ive heard anything like it before).

I sometimes wonder what I "define" my sexuality as, because I am on the surface at least capable of being attracted to men and women, especially those who are highly androgynous and don't really fit into gender boxes at it were. I am attracted to sterotypically masculine personality types:- yet as Ive mentioned before the certain appendage that men generally have stops me from having any more interest beyond "oh that persons attractive" as what lies beneath as it were just dosent appeal. So in the end I obviously like, masculine, androgenous women.. etc.. which by defeniton I suppose makes me a lesbian, yet I CAN most definately see why women are attracted to men.. so is that an element of bi-sexuality? I dont know. But I find it interesting to mull over from time to time anyway.

cantata · May 30, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
I've never heard a story quite like that before. Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome. Thanks for not hating me!

selfinflikted said:
Interesting. My first question, obviously, would be why?

See above, for my answer to EnemyPartyII

selfinflikted said:
But secondly, if you were able to change through force of will, why would you say it'd be impossible to change back through force of will? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Well, I could learn to like something through force of will, but I noted at the time that I couldn't learn not to like men. Even as I got more attracted to women, I couldn't stop having thoughts about men. I think I would similarly find it very difficult, now I know what's hot about ladies, to stop being attracted to them any more. It's like being taught something and then trying to forget it - very tricky.

Some people might be able to stop liking things, but I find it hard. Maybe with therapy I could change back, but I wouldn't want to.

selfinflikted said:
By the way, while I think this is a very interesting case, I would hardly think this would be considered the "norm" for most if not all other gay/bisexual people.

Oh, absolutely, I agree with you! I'm just saying it's nice not to be told that I was born this way. I also happen to know some other queer-by-choice folks. And I also think that the "We can't help it" argument is specious and muddies the waters. Having sex with people of your own sex is not wrong, and that's the important part of any argument with people who disagree. Whether or not it's genes, biology, environment, or a choice for some people is not important, except, of course, to those people.

Trevorocity said:
Facetious:
1.not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2.amusing; humorous.
3.lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person

Thanks for the lesson. And the backpedalling.

HaloHope said:
Very interesting post this (and the first time ive heard anything like it before).

I sometimes wonder what I "define" my sexuality as, because I am on the surface at least capable of being attracted to men and women, especially those who are highly androgynous and don't really fit into gender boxes at it were. I am attracted to sterotypically masculine personality types:- yet as Ive mentioned before the certain appendage that men generally have stops me from having any more interest beyond "oh that persons attractive" as what lies beneath as it were just dosent appeal. So in the end I obviously like, masculine, androgenous women.. etc.. which by defeniton I suppose makes me a lesbian, yet I CAN most definately see why women are attracted to men.. so is that an element of bi-sexuality? I dont know. But I find it interesting to mull over from time to time anyway.

This is why I don't like labels, and why I personally prefer to identify as queer rather than bisexual. It is interesting to think about, and it's good that you feel comfortable enough to ask questions about your sexuality, but I hope you never let it upset you. There's no need to force yourself into a box, or to label yourself for good.

selfinflikted · May 30, 2008

cantata said:
You're welcome. Thanks for not hating me!

I, for one, do not

cantata said:
See above, for my answer to EnemyPartyII

Ah, I missed that one.

cantata said:
Well, I could learn to like something through force of will, but I noted at the time that I couldn't learn not to like men. Even as I got more attracted to women, I couldn't stop having thoughts about men. I think I would similarly find it very difficult, now I know what's hot about ladies, to stop being attracted to them any more. It's like being taught something and then trying to forget it - very tricky.

Some people might be able to stop liking things, but I find it hard. Maybe with therapy I could change back, but I wouldn't want to.

I certainly wouldn't want you to change back, if you didn't want to. I can't say I fully understand all of this, Cantata, but I certainly do not hold any kind of contempt for you simply because you "don't fit in the queer box" as you say. You're one of the more pleasant and intelligent people here

cantata said:
Whether or not it's genes, biology, environment, or a choice for some people is not important, except, of course, to those people.

I agree, the "why" isn't important insofar as determining if the state of being itself if right or wrong. However, I personally would like to know the "why's". I'd like to understand how it is that I came to be the way I am.

cantata · May 30, 2008

selfinflikted said:
I, for one, do not

I certainly wouldn't want you to change back, if you didn't want to. I can't say I fully understand all of this, Cantata, but I certainly do not hold any kind of contempt for you simply because you "don't fit in the queer box" as you say. You're one of the more pleasant and intelligent people here

D'aw, thanks!

It's taken a while for me to understand it myself. For a long time I told myself that I'd always been this way, and it actually took a huge effort to admit to myself and others that I had a hand in changing my sexual orientation. There are still things I'm not sure about, and things I worry about - and I know it makes me quick to spot not-born-ness in others where perhaps I shouldn't. But it's also made me think about sexuality and relationships in a different way, and I'm much happier queer than I ever was straight, so on the whole, I'm glad I chose, although I did it for reasons I'm quite ashamed of.

selfinflikted said:
I agree, the "why" isn't important insofar as determining if the state of being itself if right or wrong. However, I personally would like to know the "why's". I'd like to understand how it is that I came to be the way I am.

Yeah, definitely! Like with everything, I think people come to be how they are in a variety of different ways. And it's certainly important to individuals to find out why they are how they are. I just wish it wasn't raised as part of the political argument, because I think it's irrelevant to everyone except queer people themselves (and their friends and families).

Spherical Time · May 30, 2008

Trevorocity said:
You could indeed point that out to them. However you know very well that they would just give you the stinkeye and point a specific finger right back at you.

I've never understood why us gays have never formed our own political party. Nevermind I understand exactly why: no group is ever completely monolithic in terms of their political views. A fourth of all GLBT's are registered Republicans for goodness sake.

My boyfriend and I have decided to form the Militant Gay Fascist Party as a joke.

I think it's because we're too spread out, politically and geographically. If there was a "gayland," we'd probably be able to form a political party.

It wouldn't really matter in the U.S. though. We're not a parliamentary system.

sethad · May 30, 2008

Trevorocity said:
One of the exceedingly ridiculous claims of the Religious Right is that "Change is possible" for Homosexuals. That is to say, they can become Heterosexual if they wish and pray for it hard enough. This myth centers around the belief that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals and they can just wave a magic wand and unchoose it.

Fair enough. One only has to look at the surface to find out what motivates the Religious Right in this matter: money. Worried, phobic, "Christian" parents will pay a premium to force their gay sons into reparative therapy against their will. And of course groups like Exodus International and Love Won Out received millions in laundered Tithe money to support their bizarre operations.

On the other hand, maybe those 5 or 6 openly "ex-gay" mouthpieces who now suckle at the Reparative Therapy Teet (in what no one could possibly conclude is a conflict of interest because its not like they have a vested interest in continuing the myth or that the Ex-Gay therapy centers pay their salary...oh wait they do), have genuinely changed.

I don't think they have and I don't think its possible SO in the spirit of discovery and research; Phobes, here's your challenge: Prove me wrong.

I've often issued this challenge in other threads. Curiously it is a challenge that has never been taken up. I say curious because it is the one way to prove ALL 'Teh Gheys' collectively wrong once and for all and shut us up forever. The challenge is issued to Heterosexuals -- Alright so you say Homosexuality is a choice? Choose it then. I've never once heard a straggot come back with, "Alright buddy you're on!"

All you really ever hear is the collective sound of all the straight guys rushing out of the room. Or you hear lame excuses like, "Oh well I could easily choose to be homosexual but I won't because its a sin". Lame. Put your money where your mouth is phobe. If homosexuality is just a choice you can always unchoose it later, and if you're sorry Jesus will forgive you.

So that's it really. This thread gets bumped until some confirmed heterosexual guy who believes sexuality is a choice takes up the challenge. Women...sorry you're out on this one. I don't find the idea of two women together titillating in any way but for the sake of the delicate constitutions of the "Christian" men on this site lets agree you're too tempting.

I've often issued the same challenge to both men and women who claim that sexuality is a choice (and I'm straight).

I would pay to see this. Seriously. But I'm pretty sure all of the fundies are currently holing themselves up somewhere in order to avoid it.

Trevorocity · May 31, 2008

Still waiting for someone to accept the challenge. So far we've just heard the same lame excuses we've heard before.

Tired, lame Excuses:
1. Its a sin so I won't do it
2. I don't think everyone can change but those that want to (because of coercion and threats of hellfire) should have the right to, but I'm not gay and its a sin so I'm not going to try anyway.
3. *crickets* somewhere in the distance a coyote howls.

TheDag · Jun 1, 2008

well I've just read page after page in this thread and i am yet to see one post by you trev that actually even slightly hints that you are genuinely interested. Your posts as i read them come across as you have made up your mind and you aren't going to change it even if evidence was given (although i don't believe there is evidence to say either side is right). You also come across as hateful which does not encourage people to participate. Interestingly I have never once heard any GLBT person make a valid point to suggest it isn't a choice. We even see in this thread that for some it is a choice and they often feel hated and isolated which is a shame.

Finally and most importantly you demonstrate a lack of understanding of certain basic concepts of christianity. (see my response to Aeris comment below)

I certainly can't take up your challenge because I do not have a phobia (excuse spelling if wrong). I do wonder if you actually understand what phobia's are and how they affect people. I personally can not recall one occasion where it has been used correctly. I have met people who could accurately be described as homephobic though.
I also can't participate because of my approach of not forcing my views on others so for example with abortion I am against abortion as a form of birth control but I will respect the choice of the person to have an abortion. If they ask for my view I will give it respectfully.

Aeris said:
Great idea although Im sure no one will actually take the challenge besides even if they did how would they prove they really became homosexual? Also the argument that its a sin is stupid, Im pretty sure their god would be happy that it was proven that its a choice so that all the homosexuals can choose to become heterosexual, then the person who proved it can just choose to become hetero again and ask to be forgiven in exchange for proving once and for all it is a choice (besides they wouldnt be an "unrepented homosexual" if they became hetero again and asked for forgiveness). Anyways it will be interesting to see the responses from people who think its a choice if they even reply at all.

Just wondering are you actually interested in an explanation of why forgiveness would not be given in this case or is my impression that you just want to have a go at a certain group of people correct? I sincerely hope it is the former and not the latter.

Trevorocity · Jun 1, 2008

TheDag said:
Your posts as i read them come across as you have made up your mind and you aren't going to change it even if evidence was given (although i don't believe there is evidence to say either side is right).

First of all: Phobia - A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

My mind is made up UNTIL I see some convincing evidence to the contrary. So far I have yet to see any. I'm basically handing my opponents the tools they need to defeat me but no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Therefore a couple conclusions could be made.

1. Deep down they know you can't just choose your sexual orientation because they themselves didn't and they know they can't change. They won't even try because they fear (phobia) being homosexual so much.

2. They're cowards

TheDag · Jun 1, 2008

Trevorocity said:
First of all: Phobia - A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

It is good that you know the definition. Now all I need to see is it used properly. Just because someone believes homosexuality is wrong does not make them homophobic. However that is how you are labelled if you think it is wrong which is an incorrect use of the word.

Trevorocity said:
My mind is made up UNTIL I see some convincing evidence to the contrary. So far I have yet to see any.

To make up your mind there must be solid evidence. Seem as I don't believe there is evidence to prove one way or the other about homosexuality being a choice perhaps you could give me the proof you have that it is not a choice. I will consider it and if it is factual then I will change my view. If you don't wish to post it here then send me a private message with your evidence. By the way the line that I've always been told is proof but do not accept as proof is people would not put up with the persecution if it was a choice. They reason that if it was a choice and they suffer the way they do then they would choose to change. The reason I don't accept that is because when that exact same principle is applied to a different group of persecuted people then the same gay people who have that belief refuse to accept it (or in other words they have double standards).

Trevorocity said:
I'm basically handing my opponents the tools they need to defeat me but no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Therefore a couple conclusions could be made.

You haven't handed them the tools. In the scenario you suggest with what you say they can do forgiveness would not be given. The reason forgiveness would not be given has nothing to do with homosexuality. As I said in my previous post it is obvious you do not understand forgiveness. I offered to explain why if you really wanted to know but from reading this post the answer I'm hearing is that you don't want to know.

mpok1519 · Jun 2, 2008

a homosexual man can choose to be heterosexual if he so chooses; but if people other than his own self are influencing said decision, its not really their decision.

Merlin · Jun 2, 2008

Trevorocity said:
Still waiting for someone to accept the challenge. So far we've just heard the same lame excuses we've heard before.

Tired, lame Excuses:
1. Its a sin so I won't do it
2. I don't think everyone can change but those that want to (because of coercion and threats of hellfire) should have the right to, but I'm not gay and its a sin so I'm not going to try anyway.
3. *crickets* somewhere in the distance a coyote howls.

You and I both know the challenge is nonsense!
Since meeting the 'challenge' you could then say that the person was homo- or bi- to begin with.

DieHappy · Jun 2, 2008

We've already had a heterosexual tell about choosing to change. The thread starter has admitted that if you overcome your genetic predisposition the label changes.

I'm not sure how it can be claimed that "phobes" are running scared.

Merlin · Jun 2, 2008

DieHappy said:
We've already had a heterosexual tell about choosing to change. The thread starter has admitted that if you overcome your genetic predisposition the label changes.

'tain 't genetic predisposition anyway.
that's just a convenient excuse.

Prove me wrong Phobes, a challenge, I'm calling you OUT.

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