Prove me wrong Phobes, a challenge, I'm calling you OUT.

[Trevorocity]

Nice try but the challenge requires a Heterosexual to convert to homosexuality successfully. Convert and I'll send you a cake. Cakes can now be sent through the mail though. I saw that on the news. There's a company that does it, they send cakes to Soldiers serving overseas on their birthdays. I thought that was nice.

Change is indeed possible, though not through prayer, but rather, classical conditioning and sometimes even through operant conditioning

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/2/151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4398980?dopt=Abstract

OP, you have been proven wrong. I expect my cake in the mail.

 

[DieHappy]

I really dont think the ad hominen argument is warrented when you are comparing choosing who you have sex with to choosing which sport to play. As for proof if anyone can provide unbiased proof for their opinion Im sure most reasonable people would accept it when it comes to something like if homosexuality/heterosexuality is a choice,

But he isn't asking for proof that there was a conversion, I think he's asking for proof that he's wrong when he says conversion isn't possible. Tricky, huh?

Well, may I put you in the "maybe" column? What I'm looking for is someone willing to change sexual orientation from Heterosexual to Homosexual. By saying that I mean a fundamental shift in your patterns of sexual/emotional attraction so that you have genuine sexual desire and emotional (love) desire for another man, and no longer desire females.

You said, "I also think that anyone can change any action at any time." Well...prove it. Simply changing your behavior is insufficient however. You could have sex with 1000 different men but if you're thinking about some chick the whole time it doesn't count. Despite what you may have heard Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. Neither is Heterosexuality. You don't cease to be straight and become some nebulous classification of sexuality the minute you wrap things up with your wife.

So if you're willing to do that we can work out the details later.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...the proof you want is for a heterosexual to turn gay? That's the standard you'll accept? If a true heterosexual turns gay then you'll believe conversion is possible.

Well, I'm not interested but I have a friend. We met in 4th grade, he lost his virginity in 8th grade, way before anyone else in our group did. He was completely hetero, as far as we knew. Then around early college he decided he was gay. He'd always been gay and was finally realizing it and accepting it. Full gay lifestyle, hosted a gay radio show, ran a gay website, the works. Really was sort of famous in the local gay community. Then he wanted kids. He decided he was wrong all along, he wasn't happy and couldn't be happy until he admitted he was wrong about the last decade and changed. Now he's got two kids and is completely hetero again.

So, did he change?

Now, let me ask, if someone is genetically predisposed to premature baldness, goes bald at age 19 and at age 26 finally has a transplant and is growing real hair on his scalp, is he a bald man?

 

[cantata]

I changed from heterosexual to bisexual. Does that count?

 

[Maren]

But he isn't asking for proof that there was a conversion, I think he's asking for proof that he's wrong when he says conversion isn't possible. Tricky, huh?



Whoa, whoa, whoa...the proof you want is for a heterosexual to turn gay? That's the standard you'll accept? If a true heterosexual turns gay then you'll believe conversion is possible.

Well, I'm not interested but I have a friend. We met in 4th grade, he lost his virginity in 8th grade, way before anyone else in our group did. He was completely hetero, as far as we knew. Then around early college he decided he was gay. He'd always been gay and was finally realizing it and accepting it. Full gay lifestyle, hosted a gay radio show, ran a gay website, the works. Really was sort of famous in the local gay community. Then he wanted kids. He decided he was wrong all along, he wasn't happy and couldn't be happy until he admitted he was wrong about the last decade and changed. Now he's got two kids and is completely hetero again.

So, did he change?

Now, let me ask, if someone is genetically predisposed to premature baldness, goes bald at age 19 and at age 26 finally has a transplant and is growing real hair on his scalp, is he a bald man?

Sounds to me as if your friend is a confused bisexual, though it is hard to know without actually knowing him. It will be interesting to see what happens if he gets married, though; as these types of guys typically end up being unfaithful with other guys, a so called "Brokeback Marriage".

As for the bald guy, I'd say he wasn't bald but hair challenged. He never lost his desire for hair -- just as gay guys that "decide" to be straight never lose their attraction for guys (hence the Brokeback marriages).

 

[cantata]

Sounds to me as if your friend is a confused bisexual, though it is hard to know without actually knowing him.

Or, he changed, voluntarily or involuntarily, as some people do.

Why do we have to have a name for everything?

 

[Trevorocity]

But he isn't asking for proof that there was a conversion, I think he's asking for proof that he's wrong when he says conversion isn't possible. Tricky, huh?

Bingo, you get a cookie. Hence: "Prove me wrong"

Whoa, whoa, whoa...the proof you want is for a heterosexual to turn gay? That's the standard you'll accept? If a true heterosexual turns gay then you'll believe conversion is possible.
Well, I'm not interested but I have a friend. We met in 4th grade, he lost his virginity in 8th grade, way before anyone else in our group did. He was completely hetero, as far as we knew. Then around early college he decided he was gay. He'd always been gay and was finally realizing it and accepting it. Full gay lifestyle, hosted a gay radio show, ran a gay website, the works. Really was sort of famous in the local gay community. Then he wanted kids. He decided he was wrong all along, he wasn't happy and couldn't be happy until he admitted he was wrong about the last decade and changed. Now he's got two kids and is completely hetero again.

So, did he change?

The proof I'm looking is that an otherwise heterosexual male can simply just choose, one day out of the blue for no apparent reason, to be gay. The case you seem to be describing seems familiar but there are a few likely explanations.

One: your friend was bisexual all along, decided to explore that side of his sexuality in college (happens often) and then got religious and decided to condemn homosexuals (also happens often). Two: your friend was always gay, pretended to be straight in highschool (happens all the time) got to college, realized life's possibilities and came out (happens all the time too), then some crazy fundies got ahold of him, brain-washed him into the ex-gay lifestyle (happens) and now he's back to pretending to be straight. Or three: he's made up.

Any way you slice it though its hearsay which is why controlled tests will have to be done.

Now, let me ask, if someone is genetically predisposed to premature baldness, goes bald at age 19 and at age 26 finally has a transplant and is growing real hair on his scalp, is he a bald man?

No baldness is the phenotype. The man is not bald anymore. However he will always be genetically predisposed to premature baldness and try as he might, just slapping some new hair on doesn't change his DNA. Likewise just having sex with the opposite sex wouldn't change any genetic or biological predisposition to homosexuality. The underlying emotions, pheromonal responses and visual signals (hot body, hubba hubba) which trigger arousal in the brain are unchanged. Even so-called "Ex-gays" admit that much. Which is why the claim they have "changed" their sexual orientation is an incredulous one. Real heterosexuals don't have to work to suppress sexual attraction for the same-sex, it just happens naturally.

 

[Isambard]

Nice try but the challenge requires a Heterosexual to convert to homosexuality successfully. Convert and I'll send you a cake. Cakes can now be sent through the mail though. I saw that on the news. There's a company that does it, they send cakes to Soldiers serving overseas on their birthdays. I thought that was nice.

Id imagine my example would've more apt as common sense kinda demonstrates your "challenge". I mean its not like there has never been a case of someone experiencing homosexual desires after puberty right?

 

[DieHappy]

The proof I'm looking is that an otherwise heterosexual male can simply just choose, one day out of the blue for no apparent reason, to be gay. The case you seem to be describing seems familiar but there are a few likely explanations.

One: your friend was bisexual all along, decided to explore that side of his sexuality in college (happens often) and then got religious and decided to condemn homosexuals (also happens often).

Religion had nothing to do with it. He rejected Christianity in grade school and never looked back. He has also never wavered, he was one, then the other, no "bi" about it.

Two: your friend was always gay, pretended to be straight in highschool (happens all the time) got to college, realized life's possibilities and came out (happens all the time too), then some crazy fundies got ahold of him, brain-washed him into the ex-gay lifestyle (happens) and now he's back to pretending to be straight.

He has no use for fundies or for peer pressure. As far as he's concerned, he switched completely, then switched back completely.

Or three: he's made up.

Don't call me a liar.

Any way you slice it though its hearsay which is why controlled tests will have to be done.

Your standard is unrealistic. Back to my first post, you will claim victory because your demands are unattainable.

No baldness is the phenotype. The man is not bald anymore. However he will always be genetically predisposed to premature baldness and try as he might, just slapping some new hair on doesn't change his DNA. Likewise just having sex with the opposite sex wouldn't change any genetic or biological predisposition to homosexuality. The underlying emotions, pheromonal responses and visual signals (hot body, hubba hubba) which trigger arousal in the brain are unchanged. Even so-called "Ex-gays" admit that much. Which is why the claim they have "changed" their sexual orientation is an incredulous one. Real heterosexuals don't have to work to suppress sexual attraction for the same-sex, it just happens naturally.

Wait, let's see that again:

The man is not bald anymore.

One more time:

The man is not bald anymore.

So he changed his appearance but not his gene sequences and you have changed his societal label.

I think that answers your challenge.

 

[Merlin]

One of the exceedingly ridiculous claims of the Religious Right is that "Change is possible" for Homosexuals. That is to say, they can become Heterosexual if they wish and pray for it hard enough. This myth centers around the belief that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals and they can just wave a magic wand and unchoose it.

Fair enough. One only has to look at the surface to find out what motivates the Religious Right in this matter: money. Worried, phobic, "Christian" parents will pay a premium to force their gay sons into reparative therapy against their will. And of course groups like Exodus International and Love Won Out received millions in laundered Tithe money to support their bizarre operations.

On the other hand, maybe those 5 or 6 openly "ex-gay" mouthpieces who now suckle at the Reparative Therapy Teet (in what no one could possibly conclude is a conflict of interest because its not like they have a vested interest in continuing the myth or that the Ex-Gay therapy centers pay their salary...oh wait they do), have genuinely changed.

I don't think they have and I don't think its possible SO in the spirit of discovery and research; Phobes, here's your challenge: Prove me wrong.

I've often issued this challenge in other threads. Curiously it is a challenge that has never been taken up. I say curious because it is the one way to prove ALL 'Teh Gheys' collectively wrong once and for all and shut us up forever. The challenge is issued to Heterosexuals -- Alright so you say Homosexuality is a choice? Choose it then. I've never once heard a straggot come back with, "Alright buddy you're on!"

All you really ever hear is the collective sound of all the straight guys rushing out of the room. Or you hear lame excuses like, "Oh well I could easily choose to be homosexual but I won't because its a sin". Lame. Put your money where your mouth is phobe. If homosexuality is just a choice you can always unchoose it later, and if you're sorry Jesus will forgive you.

So that's it really. This thread gets bumped until some confirmed heterosexual guy who believes sexuality is a choice takes up the challenge. Women...sorry you're out on this one. I don't find the idea of two women together titillating in any way but for the sake of the delicate constitutions of the "Christian" men on this site lets agree you're too tempting.

So, are you honestly saying you want to change and if you could be shown it's a choice, you'd choose to change?
You want to change, but don't think you can?

 

[Trevorocity]

Id imagine my example would've more apt as common sense kinda demonstrates your "challenge". I mean its not like there has never been a case of someone experiencing homosexual desires after puberty right?

I'm afraid you lost me somewhere about 2 miles back

 

[cantata]

The proof I'm looking is that an otherwise heterosexual male can simply just choose, one day out of the blue for no apparent reason, to be gay. The case you seem to be describing seems familiar but there are a few likely explanations.

One: your friend was bisexual all along, decided to explore that side of his sexuality in college (happens often) and then got religious and decided to condemn homosexuals (also happens often). Two: your friend was always gay, pretended to be straight in highschool (happens all the time) got to college, realized life's possibilities and came out (happens all the time too), then some crazy fundies got ahold of him, brain-washed him into the ex-gay lifestyle (happens) and now he's back to pretending to be straight. Or three: he's made up.

Or four: he changed, either voluntarily or involuntarily, as some people do.

Why do there need to be labels for everything? Why can't there be anomalies which don't support a general point? Why can't everyone just be more sensible about this issue?

People's self-identification is what matters. This guy identified as straight-then-gay-then-straight? Then that's what he was. Why does that pain you so much? It doesn't mean anyone and everyone can and/or should change. It just means that he did.

I really hate it when people deny others' experiences. Here I am, a bisexual person who actively chose bisexuality over heterosexuality. I notice that I get quietly ignored. Why? Because I don't fit? Because I'm not important? Do you think I'm a liar? Or am I just inconvenient?

 

[selfinflikted]

One of the exceedingly ridiculous claims of the Religious Right is that "Change is possible" for Homosexuals. That is to say, they can become Heterosexual if they wish and pray for it hard enough. This myth centers around the belief that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals and they can just wave a magic wand and unchoose it.

Fair enough. One only has to look at the surface to find out what motivates the Religious Right in this matter: money. Worried, phobic, "Christian" parents will pay a premium to force their gay sons into reparative therapy against their will. And of course groups like Exodus International and Love Won Out received millions in laundered Tithe money to support their bizarre operations.

On the other hand, maybe those 5 or 6 openly "ex-gay" mouthpieces who now suckle at the Reparative Therapy Teet (in what no one could possibly conclude is a conflict of interest because its not like they have a vested interest in continuing the myth or that the Ex-Gay therapy centers pay their salary...oh wait they do), have genuinely changed.

I don't think they have and I don't think its possible SO in the spirit of discovery and research; Phobes, here's your challenge: Prove me wrong.

I've often issued this challenge in other threads. Curiously it is a challenge that has never been taken up. I say curious because it is the one way to prove ALL 'Teh Gheys' collectively wrong once and for all and shut us up forever. The challenge is issued to Heterosexuals -- Alright so you say Homosexuality is a choice? Choose it then. I've never once heard a straggot come back with, "Alright buddy you're on!"

All you really ever hear is the collective sound of all the straight guys rushing out of the room. Or you hear lame excuses like, "Oh well I could easily choose to be homosexual but I won't because its a sin". Lame. Put your money where your mouth is phobe. If homosexuality is just a choice you can always unchoose it later, and if you're sorry Jesus will forgive you.

So that's it really. This thread gets bumped until some confirmed heterosexual guy who believes sexuality is a choice takes up the challenge. Women...sorry you're out on this one. I don't find the idea of two women together titillating in any way but for the sake of the delicate constitutions of the "Christian" men on this site lets agree you're too tempting.

Trevor, I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish here, but I think your reasoning, and thus your challenge is flawed.

Any heterosexual on the face of the planet could choose to have sex with a person of the same sex. This, however, does not in any way mean that they have "changed" their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is not who one has sexual relations with, it is not sex at all, it is not an action. Sexual orientation is a state of being attracted to someone of the same sex.

I'm gay. I have been gay since I was very young, and before I even knew there was a word for it. That said, until I was "out", I carried on like a heterosexual. I dated girls, had "girlfriends", had sex with them. Even though I was living life as a heterosexual that did not change the fact that I was -am- gay.

Even if someone was to take up your offer and choose to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, that would not "change" them from hetero- to homosexual.

 

[Trevorocity]

So, are you honestly saying you want to change and if you could be shown it's a choice, you'd choose to change?
You want to change, but don't think you can?

Nope. I'm saying I don't think change is possible. And I don't want to anyway. I'm also saying to those that think it is: Change, then I'll be proved wrong.

 

[Trevorocity]

Trevor, I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish here, but I think your reasoning, and thus your challenge is flawed.

Any heterosexual on the face of the planet could choose to have sex with a person of the same sex. This, however, does not in any way mean that they have "changed" their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is not who one has sexual relations with, it is not sex at all, it is not an action. Sexual orientation is a state of being attracted to someone of the same sex.

I'm gay. I have been gay since I was very young, and before I even knew there was a word for it. That said, until I was "out", I carried on like a heterosexual. I dated girls, had "girlfriends", had sex with them. Even though I was living life as a heterosexual that did not change the fact that I was -am- gay.

Even if someone was to take up your offer and choose to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, that would not "change" them from hetero- to homosexual.

Bingo, you also get a cookie. The so-called ex-gays are nothing of the sort. They're still as gay as a box of birds, they're just pretending they arent.

 

[selfinflikted]

Bingo, you also get a cookie. The so-called ex-gays are nothing of the sort. They're still as gay as a box of birds, they're just pretending they arent.

I know it. You know it. The "ex-gays" sure as hell know it. Then, there are the sheep...

 

[Khameo]

Urgh. Trevor.

This topic is fail.

Even assuming that there are people who can change, it doesn't mean anything because there are also people who can't change. Sexuality shouldn't even be an issue anyway, even if people could choose.

What is the point of this thread?
At best you'll achieve nothing and at worst you'll weaken your own position by allowing people to point out the one-in-a-million person who can or has changed their sexuality.

What the hell were you thinking?

 

[cantata]

Urgh. Trevor.

This topic is fail.

Even assuming that there are people who can change, it doesn't mean anything because there are also people who can't change. Sexuality shouldn't even be an issue anyway, even if people could choose.

What is the point of this thread?
At best you'll achieve nothing and at worst you'll weaken your own position by allowing people to point out the one-in-a-million person who can or has changed their sexuality.

What the hell were you thinking?

Exactly!

 

[Trevorocity]

I know it. You know it. The "ex-gays" sure as hell know it. Then, there are the sheep...

Well see that's wherein lies the trouble. Ex-gay therapy isn't about making gays straight or helping them cope with being faced with a life of isolation and celibacy always marked by the suspicious glares of "normal" "Christians". Its about giving false-hope to the parents of a gay or lesbian child, and making money while feeling morally superior. In short, Ex-gay therapy is to treat straight peoples' problem with gay people.

 

[cantata]

Well see that's wherein lies the trouble. Ex-gay therapy isn't about making gays straight or helping them cope with being faced with a life of isolation and celibacy always marked by the suspicious glares of "normal" "Christians". Its about giving false-hope to the parents of a gay or lesbian child, and making money while feeling morally superior. In short, Ex-gay therapy is to treat straight peoples' problem with gay people.

This, I agree with.

Maybe you'll talk to me now.

 

[Spherical Time]

But I would think (if it was possible to choose) that the shift would be from homosexual or heterosexual to bisexual, I dont think that they would completely stop being attracted to whatever gender they were originally attracted to.

Personally, the important part is testable change in orientation, in whatever form that takes. If a person starts off with no attraction to the same sex, but after the process they do, that would be very, very interesting.

That is not the true spirit of christianity. This would be the sin of presumption. Sinning thinking Jesus will forgive you later on, thus giving you freedom to sin. That is a sin in itself to presume God's mercy. Personally I think this OP speaks anger and wrath from the heart.. prove sin with sin? You cannot fight evil with evil. The reason why you don't want homosexuality to be deamed a choice is because you want to reduce the culpability of its actions. This shows that you have shame for what you do. Because if you had no shame you would have no problem admiting that homosexuality is a choice the same way drinking and smoking is. Yes there is genetic propensity, but the choice is still there always. Trying to prove to someone that you are born that way, even though homosexuality is not a physical trait and is all pshycological, it shows that you feel shame for what you do. Otherwise you would not want to reduce its culpability by shrouding it under the guise of "were born with it". You cannot win and be happy when there is poison in you,,, otherwise you are going to seek to justify your own sins the rest of your life to people. The problem is people can't do anything and cannot revert God's declaration in Holy Scripture and the Church about sin. Either 2 things will happen in the end, either you will justify sin out of pride till the end, or you will lay down your arms and accept what God has delcared.

The fact that this is coming from a guy with a crusades knight for an avatar makes my day.

Incidentally, I don't feel shame for being gay. I feel shame when I have to lie to people about being straight.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...the proof you want is for a heterosexual to turn gay? That's the standard you'll accept? If a true heterosexual turns gay then you'll believe conversion is possible.

Well, I'm not interested but I have a friend. We met in 4th grade, he lost his virginity in 8th grade, way before anyone else in our group did. He was completely hetero, as far as we knew. Then around early college he decided he was gay. He'd always been gay and was finally realizing it and accepting it. Full gay lifestyle, hosted a gay radio show, ran a gay website, the works. Really was sort of famous in the local gay community. Then he wanted kids. He decided he was wrong all along, he wasn't happy and couldn't be happy until he admitted he was wrong about the last decade and changed. Now he's got two kids and is completely hetero again.

So, did he change?

Now, let me ask, if someone is genetically predisposed to premature baldness, goes bald at age 19 and at age 26 finally has a transplant and is growing real hair on his scalp, is he a bald man?

That's an interesting story. Personally, from what you've said, I don't think that your friend did change. He seems to have a fairly consistent streak of following whatever behavior will make him happy at the time, and taking it to the extreme.

As someone once pointed out to me, the most outspoken atheists make the most outspoken theists, and vice versa.