Prove me wrong Phobes, a challenge, I'm calling you OUT.

[Aeris]

Well, perhaps a religious homosexual should? And perhaps many have, through the years, entered the clergy?

It is probably easier than a lot of people think.

I highly doubt its easy ... I would add more but the idea of priests raping little kids seems too sterotypical

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Interesting that the only person from the "anti" camp enters the thread to derail it... look everyone, he's not answering the question!

Well, perhaps a religious homosexual should? And perhaps many have, through the years, entered the clergy?

It is probably easier than a lot of people think.

 

[DieHappy]

One of the exceedingly ridiculous claims of the Religious Right is that "Change is possible" for Homosexuals. That is to say, they can become Heterosexual if they wish and pray for it hard enough. This myth centers around the belief that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals and they can just wave a magic wand and unchoose it.

Fair enough. One only has to look at the surface to find out what motivates the Religious Right in this matter: money. Worried, phobic, "Christian" parents will pay a premium to force their gay sons into reparative therapy against their will. And of course groups like Exodus International and Love Won Out received millions in laundered Tithe money to support their bizarre operations.

On the other hand, maybe those 5 or 6 openly "ex-gay" mouthpieces who now suckle at the Reparative Therapy Teet (in what no one could possibly conclude is a conflict of interest because its not like they have a vested interest in continuing the myth or that the Ex-Gay therapy centers pay their salary...oh wait they do), have genuinely changed.

I don't think they have and I don't think its possible SO in the spirit of discovery and research; Phobes, here's your challenge: Prove me wrong.

I've often issued this challenge in other threads. Curiously it is a challenge that has never been taken up. I say curious because it is the one way to prove ALL 'Teh Gheys' collectively wrong once and for all and shut us up forever. The challenge is issued to Heterosexuals -- Alright so you say Homosexuality is a choice? Choose it then. I've never once heard a straggot come back with, "Alright buddy you're on!"

All you really ever hear is the collective sound of all the straight guys rushing out of the room. Or you hear lame excuses like, "Oh well I could easily choose to be homosexual but I won't because its a sin". Lame. Put your money where your mouth is phobe. If homosexuality is just a choice you can always unchoose it later, and if you're sorry Jesus will forgive you.

So that's it really. This thread gets bumped until some confirmed heterosexual guy who believes sexuality is a choice takes up the challenge. Women...sorry you're out on this one. I don't find the idea of two women together titillating in any way but for the sake of the delicate constitutions of the "Christian" men on this site lets agree you're too tempting.

Your inimical attitude and poor sentence structure notwithstanding, clarify what you are looking for.
On the same scale, I am 100% heterosexual. I also think that anyone can change any action at any time. I can choose to play basketball instead of golf this summer. I may not like basketball, and I love golf, and I may never learn to love basketball, but I can choose my actions.
And as for proof, you betray yourself by bringing up the "5 or 6 openly 'ex-gay' mouthpieces." Either they are proof, or you choose not to believe them and there is never going to be any proof for you.

Of course, that's par for the course in this forum: bring up your belief, ask for proof to the contrary, reject any offerings of proof, claim victory.

Bravo, sir. Golf clap for you and your giant brain.

 

[Isambard]

Change is indeed possible, though not through prayer, but rather, classical conditioning and sometimes even through operant conditioning

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/2/151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4398980?dopt=Abstract

OP, you have been proven wrong. I expect my cake in the mail.

 

[Aeris]

Your inimical attitude and poor sentence structure notwithstanding, clarify what you are looking for.
On the same scale, I am 100% heterosexual. I also think that anyone can change any action at any time. I can choose to play basketball instead of golf this summer. I may not like basketball, and I love golf, and I may never learn to love basketball, but I can choose my actions.
And as for proof, you betray yourself by bringing up the "5 or 6 openly 'ex-gay' mouthpieces." Either they are proof, or you choose not to believe them and there is never going to be any proof for you.

Of course, that's par for the course in this forum: bring up your belief, ask for proof to the contrary, reject any offerings of proof, claim victory.

Bravo, sir. Golf clap for you and your giant brain.

I really dont think the ad hominen argument is warrented when you are comparing choosing who you have sex with to choosing which sport to play. As for proof if anyone can provide unbiased proof for their opinion Im sure most reasonable people would accept it when it comes to something like if homosexuality/heterosexuality is a choice, as for opinions on moral/ethical things such as abortion, or whether or not gay marriage should be legal, you cant really prove it because there is always some element of personal opinion invovled, but whether or not sexual orientation is a choice is not a moral or ethical issue.

 

[aotn]

Let me see if I can do this, I've read all the ex-gay websites so I know the lingo, I'll mash them all upn together and get this:

We are all sinners living in a fallen world and just like alcoholics and rapists and paedophiles there are homosexuals who are gay because they are born into sin and even though God loves them just as much as He loves everyone else He does not want them to live a life that is condemned in the Bible numerous times and is also a destructive lifestyle that will result in AIDS, rectal bleeding, pain in all parts of the body and death of the Spirit and the good news is that the Gospel offers hope for all homosexuals that Jesus died on the cross for ALL of our sins and He can cleanse people with Same-Sex Attraction (SSA) and take away their deviant thoughts and bring them into a relationship with Him and bring healing to their broken minds, hearts and souls and it is because He loves us so much that by focussing on Him people with SSA will be healed and we say this out of love because we do not hate people we hate sin and homosexuality is a sin but having attraction is not a sin and we do not label people by their sins and true intimacy will be abstaining from sin even if someone is never rid of their SSA and we really do love all people with SSA and we encourage all Christians to love them and love is telling someone they're doing something wrong love the sinner hate the sin and you'll go to Hell unless you're a straight, white Christian.

 

[katautumn]

Let me see if I can do this, I've read all the ex-gay websites so I know the lingo, I'll mash them all upn together and get this:

We are all sinners living in a fallen world and just like alcoholics and rapists and paedophiles there are homosexuals who are gay because they are born into sin and even though God loves them just as much as He loves everyone else He does not want them to live a life that is condemned in the Bible numerous times and is also a destructive lifestyle that will result in AIDS, rectal bleeding, pain in all parts of the body and death of the Spirit and the good news is that the Gospel offers hope for all homosexuals that Jesus died on the cross for ALL of our sins and He can cleanse people with Same-Sex Attraction (SSA) and take away their deviant thoughts and bring them into a relationship with Him and bring healing to their broken minds, hearts and souls and it is because He loves us so much that by focussing on Him people with SSA will be healed and we say this out of love because we do not hate people we hate sin and homosexuality is a sin but having attraction is not a sin and we do not label people by their sins and true intimacy will be abstaining from sin even if someone is never rid of their SSA and we really do love all people with SSA and we encourage all Christians to love them and love is telling someone they're doing something wrong love the sinner hate the sin and you'll go to Hell unless you're a straight, white Christian.

That is seriously the longest run-on sentence I've ever read online.

 

[stan1980]

As a straight guy, I don't think it would be easy to change, but I've always believed that anything is possible if you put your mind to it, so I'm willing to give it a go. Yes, that's right, I will put my body on the line and give it a go, so if there are any sexy lesbians out there, PM me, and I can get cracking on curing you.

 

[katautumn]

As a straight guy, I don't think it would be easy to change, but I've always believed that anything is possible if you put your mind to it, so I'm willing to give it a go. Yes, that's right, I will put my body on the line and give it a go, so if there are any sexy lesbians out there, PM me, and I can get cracking on curing you.

Hehehe

You raise an interesting point, though. If sexual orientation were something that one could change if they simply pray about it and focus on not being that way any longer, how is it that straight people (especially males) would never even think about entering into a same-sex relationship? If it's so easy to change your sexual orientation, why aren't people who are completely straight not turning gay?

 

[Maren]

Change is indeed possible, though not through prayer, but rather, classical conditioning and sometimes even through operant conditioning

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/2/151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4398980?dopt=Abstract

OP, you have been proven wrong. I expect my cake in the mail.

Sorry, a couple of studies from 35 years ago that used aversion therapy don't prove anything. There are reasons that aversion therapy is no longer used in the modern world, largely the fact they were completely ineffective. Of course the studies reported successes -- they were often treating people under court order that required them to change. Further, the "therapy" was electric shock in combination with nude pictures -- basically the people in therapy were learning to react to make the pain stop. For all the talk of Guantanamo, we don't torture terrorists this way. Of course, long term studies found that there was actually no change in the sexuality of the individuals tested, which is largely the reason this type of therapy hasn't really been used since the mid-70s and is illegal in pretty much every Western nation.

Now, using modern studies the evidence indicates that no more than 3% of homosexuals are capable of any real change (at least according to one of the researchers, Spitzer, who is lauded by NARTH for saying change is possible).

Though I must admit how odd it is in the 30 years NARTH (who claim they are a scientific organization) has existed, they have never managed to conduct a truly scientific study that proves that they, or the ex-gay groups they represent, can change a persons orientation from gay to straight. (Again, which is why the hype the Spitzer study, despite the fact it doesn't really prove their claims).

 

[Isambard]

Sorry, a couple of studies from 35 years ago that used aversion therapy don't prove anything. There are reasons that aversion therapy is no longer used in the modern world, largely the fact they were completely ineffective. Of course the studies reported successes -- they were often treating people under court order that required them to change. Further, the "therapy" was electric shock in combination with nude pictures -- basically the people in therapy were learning to react to make the pain stop. For all the talk of Guantanamo, we don't torture terrorists this way. Of course, long term studies found that there was actually no change in the sexuality of the individuals tested, which is largely the reason this type of therapy hasn't really been used since the mid-70s and is illegal in pretty much every Western nation.

Now, using modern studies the evidence indicates that no more than 3% of homosexuals are capable of any real change (at least according to one of the researchers, Spitzer, who is lauded by NARTH for saying change is possible).

Though I must admit how odd it is in the 30 years NARTH (who claim they are a scientific organization) has existed, they have never managed to conduct a truly scientific study that proves that they, or the ex-gay groups they represent, can change a persons orientation from gay to straight. (Again, which is why the hype the Spitzer study, despite the fact it doesn't really prove their claims).

You seem to be quite right about aversion therapy and Spitzer. Still, I think that with enough conditioning, one may not necessarily extingish homosexual desire, just have it be very very unpleasant to the point the person wont react to it.

Granted, at this point the person would most likely be feral or catatonic

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Let me see if I can do this, I've read all the ex-gay websites so I know the lingo, I'll mash them all upn together and get this:

We are all sinners living in a fallen world and just like alcoholics and rapists and paedophiles there are homosexuals who are gay because they are born into sin and even though God loves them just as much as He loves everyone else He does not want them to live a life that is condemned in the Bible numerous times and is also a destructive lifestyle that will result in AIDS, rectal bleeding, pain in all parts of the body and death of the Spirit and the good news is that the Gospel offers hope for all homosexuals that Jesus died on the cross for ALL of our sins and He can cleanse people with Same-Sex Attraction (SSA) and take away their deviant thoughts and bring them into a relationship with Him and bring healing to their broken minds, hearts and souls and it is because He loves us so much that by focussing on Him people with SSA will be healed and we say this out of love because we do not hate people we hate sin and homosexuality is a sin but having attraction is not a sin and we do not label people by their sins and true intimacy will be abstaining from sin even if someone is never rid of their SSA and we really do love all people with SSA and we encourage all Christians to love them and love is telling someone they're doing something wrong love the sinner hate the sin and you'll go to Hell unless you're a straight, white Christian.

You forgot to mention "gay bowel syndrome"

 

[cantata]

Change is possible when attempted for the right reasons.

To prove Trevorocity and other gay people wrong is not a right reason.

(Nor, incidentally, is fear of divine retribution.)

 

[PetersKeys]

If homosexuality is just a choice you can always unchoose it later, and if you're sorry Jesus will forgive you.

That is not the true spirit of christianity. This would be the sin of presumption. Sinning thinking Jesus will forgive you later on, thus giving you freedom to sin. That is a sin in itself to presume God's mercy. Personally I think this OP speaks anger and wrath from the heart.. prove sin with sin? You cannot fight evil with evil. The reason why you don't want homosexuality to be deamed a choice is because you want to reduce the culpability of its actions. This shows that you have shame for what you do. Because if you had no shame you would have no problem admiting that homosexuality is a choice the same way drinking and smoking is. Yes there is genetic propensity, but the choice is still there always. Trying to prove to someone that you are born that way, even though homosexuality is not a physical trait and is all pshycological, it shows that you feel shame for what you do. Otherwise you would not want to reduce its culpability by shrouding it under the guise of "were born with it". You cannot win and be happy when there is poison in you,,, otherwise you are going to seek to justify your own sins the rest of your life to people. The problem is people can't do anything and cannot revert God's declaration in Holy Scripture and the Church about sin. Either 2 things will happen in the end, either you will justify sin out of pride till the end, or you will lay down your arms and accept what God has delcared.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

*subscribing with bacon sandwich and cuppa tea in hand*

 

[Trevorocity]

As a straight guy, I don't think it would be easy to change, but I've always believed that anything is possible if you put your mind to it, so I'm willing to give it a go. Yes, that's right, I will put my body on the line and give it a go, so if there are any sexy lesbians out there, PM me, and I can get cracking on curing you.

Cheeky...

 

[TheManeki]

Ah, but Paul's advice was it was better to remain celibate and unmarried, not just for (presumably) homosexuals but heterosexuals as well. If everyone had taken his advice there would be far fewer people alive now then there are.

You know, it's very interesting you mention this. Early Christianity had this fetish for heterosexual celibacy, as evidenced in many of the writings of the period that didn't make it into the Bible. Between Paul's urging of celibacy and the lack of any mention that Jesus married, there was a lot of pressure to stay single. I recommend Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities for more.

 

[Trevorocity]

You know, it's very interesting you mention this. Early Christianity had this fetish for heterosexual celibacy, as evidenced in many of the writings of the period that didn't make it into the Bible. Between Paul's urging of celibacy and the lack of any mention that Jesus married, there was a lot of pressure to stay single. I recommend Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities for more.

Not to completely derail my own thread...but I always found it a travesty that many of the ancient texts were deliberately destroyed and we will never ever know what they said. The history of how the Canon came to be is fraught with violence, political power plays, and despicable zealotry of a type more commonly associated with authoritarian governments.

 

[Trevorocity]

Well, may I put you in the "maybe" column? What I'm looking for is someone willing to change sexual orientation from Heterosexual to Homosexual. By saying that I mean a fundamental shift in your patterns of sexual/emotional attraction so that you have genuine sexual desire and emotional (love) desire for another man, and no longer desire females.

You said, "I also think that anyone can change any action at any time." Well...prove it. Simply changing your behavior is insufficient however. You could have sex with 1000 different men but if you're thinking about some chick the whole time it doesn't count. Despite what you may have heard Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. Neither is Heterosexuality. You don't cease to be straight and become some nebulous classification of sexuality the minute you wrap things up with your wife.

So if you're willing to do that we can work out the details later.

Your inimical attitude and poor sentence structure notwithstanding, clarify what you are looking for.
On the same scale, I am 100% heterosexual. I also think that anyone can change any action at any time. I can choose to play basketball instead of golf this summer. I may not like basketball, and I love golf, and I may never learn to love basketball, but I can choose my actions.
And as for proof, you betray yourself by bringing up the "5 or 6 openly 'ex-gay' mouthpieces." Either they are proof, or you choose not to believe them and there is never going to be any proof for you.

Of course, that's par for the course in this forum: bring up your belief, ask for proof to the contrary, reject any offerings of proof, claim victory.

Bravo, sir. Golf clap for you and your giant brain.

 

[Trevorocity]

That is not the true spirit of christianity. This would be the sin of presumption. Sinning thinking Jesus will forgive you later on, thus giving you freedom to sin. That is a sin in itself to presume God's mercy.

Actually every "Christian" who chooses to sin does so of their own free will and believes exactly that: Jesus will just forgive them later. So therefore according to your line of reasoning everyone is doomed.

Personally I think this OP speaks anger and wrath from the heart.. prove sin with sin? You cannot fight evil with evil. The reason why you don't want homosexuality to be deamed a choice is because you want to reduce the culpability of its actions.

But you can fight fire with fire. Actually the reason I don't want homosexuality to be deemed a choice is because that's a destructive lie, hence my challenge.

This shows that you have shame for what you do. Because if you had no shame you would have no problem admiting that homosexuality is a choice the same way drinking and smoking is.

False analogy, and I am not ashamed. I am however incensed because I know that I am right and I have a deep committment to the facts unlike the Catholic "Church". And by the way neither drinking nor smoking will keep you out of Heaven.

Yes there is genetic propensity, but the choice is still there always. Trying to prove to someone that you are born that way, even though homosexuality is not a physical trait and is all pshycological, it shows that you feel shame for what you do. Otherwise you would not want to reduce its culpability by shrouding it under the guise of "were born with it". You cannot win and be happy when there is poison in you,,, otherwise you are going to seek to justify your own sins the rest of your life to people. The problem is people can't do anything and cannot revert God's declaration in Holy Scripture and the Church about sin. Either 2 things will happen in the end, either you will justify sin out of pride till the end, or you will lay down your arms and accept what God has delcared.

Actually I'm very proud of the way I was born. Furthermore if it were a choice I would choose it. We're a better class of people than the most Hets.