Protesting the national anthem

[grasping the after wind]

I'd point out first that the national anthem is imposed on players in their workplace, and clearly their employers are not particularly upset by the players staging a protest, so it's not imposed by their employers or by the NFL, but by the government.

Second, it was an Army Special Forces veteran who specifically advised "taking a knee" as the most respectful way of lodging a protest, and as a military retiree myself who has participated in a couple of hundred flag ceremonies, I see his logic.

Third, stadiums very often commit gross violations of Flag Code, and the ceremony ought to be protested on that grounds alone. As a person who has been in and led honor guards, my attitude would be, "Do it right or I'm not participating."

On your first point, I must strenuously disagree with the idea that The government has imposed the anthem on the NFL. I would say the NFL is legally within its right to simply stop having the anthem played at any time they chose or to not require players to be on the field while it is being played. I would welcome the former outcome as there is no logical reason for playing it at the beginning of a private sports event. I have heard that the Obama administration did encourage the NFL( perhaps with a monetary inducement but I don't know if that is the case.) to have players on the field for it, but no law was passed to impose it upon anyone. You are correct that the NFl has not denied their players the ability to do as the players see fit during the anthem. If the situation were different and the NFL was insistent upon standing during the anthem, the NFL would be as much within their rights to demand their employees do so as any other employer is within its rights to demand an employee wear a name tag or business attire or refrain from political protest or religious proselytizing while on company time. As the NFL does not find this behavior incompatible with their goals, the players are as free and within their rights to protest as Trump is to call them names and express the desire to see them fired for doing so. That both things are offensive to particular groups of people does not diminish either the players' or Trump's rights to be offensive to those groups.I would simply ask that no one pretend that the offended were not offended or had no right to be offended. The offended have the exact same right to take offense as others have of expressing their opinions. Deciding to be offended is as much a right as any other form of free speech. Look how often politicians and other bureaucrats make a huge production out of taking offense at being told the truth about what they have done.

To your second point. That is completely irrelevant to whether or not anyone with the exception of Kaepernick, that single Armed Special Forces veteran and yourself feels offended by that behavior. As many people outside of that small circle have expressed a contrary view I cannot say they are required to change their view based upon the opinion of the three of you. You can tell them you think that they ought not be offended but you cannot stop them from being offended. Then again I do not think the three of you are required to feel offended by the behavior either. People decide what offends them. You can care about that and make an effort to please them or you can decide they are being oversensitive and not do anything simply for their sake but you can't insist they not be offended because you and two others decided they have no reason to be.

To your third point I agree with your last sentiment. i.e. do it right . I would add or don't do it at all. However, no one is currently claiming to protest the ceremony on the grounds of it being done incompetently, so again I see no relevance to this particular situation. On that very subject though, I have thought for years that what I would call preening during the anthem by the singer was disgusting and self serving but it seems not to bother most people and enthralls many others. See, to me "doing it right" would include singing it as it was written and not virtually rewriting the melody to show off one's vocal virtuosity. That is the reason I have long wished the anthem would be reserved for more solemn occasions and be preformed with more serious intent by less self aggrandizing people than what is typically seem at a nationally televised sports venue.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

And that is the problem. You can insinuate without evidence all you wish but simply claiming a causal link that you can not show is the same conspiracy theory claptrap we have always seen.

Sure, whatever you say.

 

[Poppyseed78]

I seriously don't care either way.

 

[RDKirk]

To your second point. That is completely irrelevant to whether or not anyone with the exception of Kaepernick, that single Armed Special Forces veteran and yourself feels offended by that behavior. As many people outside of that small circle have expressed a contrary view I cannot say they are required to change their view based upon the opinion of the three of you. You can tell them you think that they ought not be offended but you cannot stop them from being offended. Then again I do not think the three of you are required to feel offended by the behavior either. People decide what offends them. You can care about that and make an effort to please them or you can decide they are being oversensitive and not do anything simply for their sake but you can't insist they not be offended because you and two others decided they have no reason to be..

Yes, people decide what offends them, a point I made earlier.

Which essentially means, as you said, that Kaepernick--who has made an effort not to be overly offensive by changing his method of protest--is free to consider everyone else overly sensitive.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Yes, people decide what offends them, a point I made earlier.

Which essentially means, as you said, that Kaepernick--who has made an effort not to be overly offensive by changing his method of protest--is free to consider everyone else overly sensitive.

I don't disagree with that at all. He can consider them oversensitive if that is his opinion. He just can't pretend they have no right to be offended. Especially, after his words, that I quoted earlier, in which he basically states he is not standing because he does not feel he can honor the country that the anthem and flag represent. Some people are offended by that statement of purpose no matter what physical change of position is made does not change the political position and the statement that the country is not worth honoring by standing up. . Do Kaepernick and the others that take his part think that their opinion on this issue is somehow an undeniable truth so any one claiming to be offended by being told their country is not worth honoring by standing up has no valid right to be offended?

 

[Cuddles333]

I think it would benefit these 'protest players' to do a years time in a 3rd world Communist or other kind of Totalitarian country, as a peasant status. Then, they would be the first ones to be standing with their hand over their heart during the anthem.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't disagree with that at all. He can consider them oversensitive if that is his opinion. He just can't pretend they have no right to be offended. Especially, after his words, that I quoted earlier, in which he basically states he is not standing because he does not feel he can honor the country that the anthem and flag represent. Some people are offended by that statement of purpose no matter what physical change of position is made does not change the political position and the statement that the country is not worth honoring by standing up. . Do Kaepernick and the others that take his part think that their opinion on this issue is somehow an undeniable truth so any one claiming to be offended by being told their country is not worth honoring by standing up has no valid right to be offended?

So if we all agree that everyone is within his rights and the NFL owners don't seem to mind, then what is all the brou-ha-ha?

He can protest, you can be offended, and everyone can go home and have soup and sandwich.

 

[Audacious]

I think it would benefit these 'protest players' to do a years time in a 3rd world Communist or other kind of Totalitarian country, as a peasant status. Then, they would be the first ones to be standing with their hand over their heart during the anthem.

I don't think that the reality that other places have it worse really makes our problems any better. Yes, there are worse places, with worse problems -- but what does that do about our issues?

Police keep killing people, especially people of color, without due cause... and tend to receive little to no consequences for these actions. Protesting during the National Anthem is perfectly fine to me, if it's an attempt to stop further tragedies.

It's a flag. I'm sure its feelings won't be too hurt.

 

[PanDeVida]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

Strathos, it is showing disrespect to the USA. If they want to protest, protest, but not during the anthem nor anywhere on the field.

 

[RDKirk]

Strathos, it is showing disrespect to the USA. If they want to protest, protest, but not during the anthem nor anywhere on the field.

Why not? Seriously, what are the specific reasons? What makes "not during the anthem or anywhere on the field" so specifically off limits to freedom of speech?

 

[DogmaHunter]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

I'm not aware of the underlying reason of why this is happening.


But I'ld like to point out that I don't care.
It's just a silly piece of music. It doesn't make you any less of an "american". The importance that americans tend to tie to a couple music notes, a couple sentences or a piece of cloth is pretty ridiculous, imo.

How is this even an issue?
Ow football players aren't kneeling or whatever during the song - like who cares?

Is that REALLY an issue that is even news worthy? Aren't there more important issues to be addressed?

There are more then 5 gunshops for every starbucks or mcdonalds in the US.
You can enter one of these shops and buy one of these:

And even worse. In certain states there is even no waiting period, no registration and barely background checks which aren't even cross referenced with FBI or interpol databases or whatever.


But boehoe, a football player is not doing a certain thing during the playing of a certain song. Boehoe indeed.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Strathos, it is showing disrespect to the USA. If they want to protest, protest, but not during the anthem nor anywhere on the field.

Pfft, it is well within anyone's legal right in the US not to respect the US.

 

[PanDeVida]

Pfft, it is well within anyone's legal right in the US not to respect the US.

Of course coming from an Atheist, who does not respect God. One who does not respect God aka Jesus Christ, they can disrespect anyone or anything and disrespect themselves, while doing so.

 

[Audacious]

Of course coming from an Atheist, who does not respect God. One who does not respect God aka Jesus Christ, they can disrespect anyone or anything and disrespect themselves, while doing so.

I respect the US and have been seriously considering recording myself burning a flag and putting it on YouTube just to exercise my free speech rights.

Nothing in the Bible tells me to practically worship the American flag, or put my hand over my chest when the anthem is playing. Personally I find the whole deal somewhat idolatrous.

 

[RDKirk]

Of course coming from an Atheist, who does not respect God. One who does not respect God aka Jesus Christ, they can disrespect anyone or anything and disrespect themselves, while doing so.

There are a lot of members of the Body of Christ around the world who do not respect the United States.

The United States has never been a "good guy" on the world stage.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I respect the US and have been seriously considering recording myself burning a flag and putting it on YouTube just to exercise my free speech rights.

Nothing in the Bible tells me to practically worship the American flag, or put my hand over my chest when the anthem is playing. Personally I find the whole deal somewhat idolatrous.

I consider it to be somewhat idolatrous myself. It seems like the American flag has become an idol that is highly revered and treated as if it is a Christian holy relic. It's truly perplexing to me just how so many American Christians hold to that flag as if it was some divine gift from God Himself that was brought down from Mount Sinai like the Ten Commandments. As far as I am aware, the American flag doesn't qualify as a holy relic and it shouldn't be treated or exalted as such.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Strathos, it is showing disrespect to the USA. If they want to protest, protest, but not during the anthem nor anywhere on the field.

I'm curious to know what kind of respect that you think America deserves and why you think America deserves that respect. I'm honestly asking and not being facetious at all. I'm honestly curious.

Of course coming from an Atheist, who does not respect God. One who does not respect God aka Jesus Christ, they can disrespect anyone or anything and disrespect themselves, while doing so.

I respect God aka Jesus Christ, and I still have no respect for the United States.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

And where in the US was that exactly?

The Standing Rock Indian Reservation in South Dakota.

 

[KCfromNC]

I think it would benefit these 'protest players' to do a years time in a 3rd world Communist or other kind of Totalitarian country, as a peasant status. Then, they would be the first ones to be standing with their hand over their heart during the anthem.

Same with the people complaining about them, or is that different?

 

[grasping the after wind]

So if we all agree that everyone is within his rights and the NFL owners don't seem to mind, then what is all the brou-ha-ha?

He can protest, you can be offended, and everyone can go home and have soup and sandwich.

I am not personally offended. I simply understand the position of the people that are offended and I highly suspect that Kaepernick knew some people would be offended. That people are offended by an expression of political protest is no reason in itself to refrain from political protest, but I can't understand how anyone could take the position that they were ever unaware that an action they took, that was sure to cause some people to become offended, would offend some people.
As for the brou-ha-ha well what is the whole point of protest To cause people to be convinced one is correct on an issue an issue I would guess? Now to argue that Kaepernick was simply spouting vague emotion based platitudes would be using rational thought to try to oppose his clearly emotional appeals. This was my reaction rather than becoming emotionally involved and being offended by the act itself I examined what he was saying and noticed the vagueness of his emotion based argument. Those arguments seem to work to convince the people attracted to emotional appeals as they tend not to respond to reason even in the face of good evidence but rather will decide what they feel is more real than what they can prove. Therefore the argument that is then used in opposing an irrational emotional appeal is another irrational emotional appeal .So instead of a give and take argument where people truly discuss an issue you have an us vs them conflict of words with neither side listening to the other aka brou -ha-ha.

There are a lot of members of the Body of Christ around the world who do not respect the United States.

The United States has never been a "good guy" on the world stage.

Never? I am curious how one could come to "never" on this. Not even "a time or two" or in "only in a particular instance " but the absolute" never". Meaning that in the whole existence of the country the US has not done anything benevolent. Then all the foreign humanitarian aid the US has consistently provided around the world is nothing? World War II opposition to totalitarianism a farce? Taking in and sheltering more refugees each year than any other country on the planet. Not simply shooting down people trying to sneak across one's borders as would be the case with most countries but even providing care and education for people who came here illegally and are breaking our laws 24/7 by remaining here illegally. If that is not being a good guy, then how would one categorize a country that did these things? Who would you consider a "good guy " on the world stage? Perhaps there are only "bad guys" and "even worse guys.