Protesting the national anthem

[Erik Nelson]

Why don't the players take a moment of silence, after the anthem, and before the coin toss, say ? Or, during pre-game & post-game interviews ??

Linking their "protest of police brutality" to the anthem seemingly implies that the former is as central to the USA as the latter -- to wit, the only way to do away with the one is to do away with the other.

Conversely, were they to take a moment of silence after or apart from the anthem, then they would be saying that the USA is not perfect but both needs to be & can be made better. I.e. is redeemable.

Haven't some people, including Samuel Adams & Paul Revere, been hailing Crispus Attucks as a victim of policing brutality since 1770 AD ?

 

[2Timothy2:15]

There were about 750 murders in Chicago in 2016. And 7,300 murders in the South in 2016.

Nice example, of blacks killing blacks. That is not even what the protest is about. smh

 

[essentialsaltes]

Nice example, of blacks killing blacks. That is not even what the protest is about. smh

Sorry, I'm just demonstrating that you don't know how to use numbers.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Sorry, I'm just demonstrating that you don't know how to use numbers.

What, the stats I posted show numbers of those killed by police by race. Which just happens to show that whites are killed more...

You do realize that the protest is about oppression and police brutality towards blacks. So then you bring up chicago killings which happen to be gangbanger vs gangbanger which shows you have no idea what you are talking about. You are demonstrating something, but it has nothing to do with me.

 

[Hearingheart]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

The players were not protesting the national anthem, they were protesting police brutality, oppression and inequality.

Because they poorly chose the anthem as their platform for protest, the original intent has been derailed and twisted to fit multiple agendas. I wonder what dent this protest made in the lives of those oppressed, treated unfairly or the object of brutality.

All I can see if further division and anger.


All in all, they have the right to protest and should....I just wish they were a little wiser in their approach to it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What, the stats I posted show numbers of those killed by police by race. Which just happens to show that whites are killed more...

No, it shows more whites are killed.

Now, you seem to think that Chicago is a dangerous place full of murderous gangbangers. And yet the stats I posted show numbers of those killed in Chicago and the South. It just happens to show that Southerners are killed more... The South is, by your logic, about ten times more dangerous than Chicago. Do you think the South is ten times as bad as Chicago with respect to murders? If not, why not?

 

[zephcom]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

Definitely morally commendable.

It is piece of cloth and a song that some people want to use as an idol of worship. If one really wants to find something to complain about in this whole issue, please consider that the guy who spends hours a day tweeting about this in order to stir up discontent and anger is the same guy who decades ago paid a doctor to say he had bad feet so he could avoid the draft.

It is the same guy who said that he didn't like John McCain because he got captured while he was fighting the war this guy avoided.

I can only imagine the emotions and anxiety people of color have in this country because of our systemic racism. But I can understand why so many of the Black athletes taking a knee at these games have customized license plates on their cars that identify them. They are all big enough to send such rivers of fear through an American police officer that they can get shot just for being alive.

The people who whine about this form of protest only do it to divert attention away from the systemic racism in America. They don't want it to change.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

 

[zephcom]

The players were not protesting the national anthem, they were protesting police brutality, oppression and inequality.

Because they poorly chose the anthem as their platform for protest, the original intent has been derailed and twisted to fit multiple agendas. I wonder what dent this protest made in the lives of those oppressed, treated unfairly or the object of brutality.

All I can see if further division and anger.


All in all, they have the right to protest and should....I just wish they were a little wiser in their approach to it.

I, gently of course, disagree that the anthem is a poor choice for their protest. The only thing at the ball game which represents America and not the sport is the anthem. They certainly are not protesting the sport or they would have chosen a walk-out to cut the flow of money into the sport.

To not use the platform their fame affords to effect change in America would be a great waste of opportunity. Certainly the guy leading the charge against them is -not- opposed to using his platform of fame wage his protests.

At least on the surface, the league and the owners seem willing to allow them the platform.

It is not up to white people to decide what would be the 'correct' avenue for them to protest because we always pick the least effective way for them to protest.

By the way white people are complaining about this, -I- think they picked a particularly good way to protest.

 

[Belk]

This took me a whole 30 seconds to find. I won't spend to much more time commenting on this if your unwilling to look for yourself.

The Corrupt Bargain Between Politicians and the NFL
NFL now defined by its lack of morals
NFL gets billions in subsidies from U.S. taxpayers

Now if you think you are going to find some source that explains all the intricacies to you I can't help. You have to connect the dots yourself. But you can go on thinking this so called protest is spontaneous and that no one is pushing agendas to the huge NFL fan base via the NFL machine. Or you can look deeper and take off the blinders and see NFL players are being used as pawns to bring further divide irregarless of how genuine they are about it individually.

And that is the problem. You can insinuate without evidence all you wish but simply claiming a causal link that you can not show is the same conspiracy theory claptrap we have always seen.

 

[bhsmte]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

Nothing to do with morality.

Everything to do with some who want to send a message, which is what freedom looks like.

 

[Dave-W]

Last winter.

And where in the US was that exactly?

 

[Dave-W]

Hmm. Well I wonder what the reaction would be if we were to make a football field sized statute of Mary, wheel it out in front of 50,000 people before a football game, have them all stand at attention, put their hands over their heart, sing a song, take of our hats, etc.

We could put it up at the opposite end of Notre Dame field, opposite Touchdown Jesus.

 

[Larniavc]

As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

I predict that once America loses it's reputation for police brutality and racism this kind of protest will stop.

 

[Dave-W]

There were about 750 murders in Chicago in 2016. And 7,300 murders in the South in 2016.

So you are ten times more likely to be murdered in the South than in Chicago. If people in Chicago are more likely to be killed the numbers would match, which they don't.

Chicago covers 234 square miles.**
"The South" (which I am presuming covers the states of Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee and Kentucky) covers 398,528 square miles. (land area only) ***

So that gives us:

3.205128 murders per square mile in Chicago.
0.018317 murders per square mile in the south.

Which means that standing in any given square mile, you are 175 times more likely to be murdered in Chicago than in the South.

** Google
*** 50 States in Square Miles from NETSTATE.COM

 

[grasping the after wind]

I think there is a valid comparison and that you deflected.

You don't venerate Mary, fine, but you say you don't disrespect Mary--yet from a Catholic viewpoint, you certainly do disrepect Mary because Catholics have their own definition of what that entails.

In the same way, one person may feel that by taking a knee during the national anthem (which, btw, was suggested to Kaepernick by a Special Forces vet as the way to protest without disrespecting the flag), he is not showing disrespect, while others think that anything less than standing and facing the flag during the national anthem is disrespect.

Here is the question for you: Suppose a Catholic believed that anything less than kneeling and crossing oneself before a picture or statue of Mary was disrespect, and you refused to do that particular action...is that really disrespect just because he thinks so?

I would think it would be disrespectful if you were attending a service or function in a Catholic Church. If it is your choice to enter there then you have put yourself in the position of being among those that are known for doing just that thing and then by making a point of letting them know you are not doing it you let them know that you have no regard their beliefs. you cannot then tell them they ought not be offended because you aren't being disrespectful. that would be dishonest because you knew they would be offended by your lack of respect for their rituals before you entered their building but entered with the express idea that you would offend them in order to make a point. The same would be true of any specific rituals associated with entering a Mosque or Synagogue or Temple. It would be as much disrespect as using a specific pronoun to describe another person would be if the pronoun you use you considered to be representative of the truth but the other considers it an insult. So Yes if you consciously go out of your way to do something like making a political point of kneeling for the anthem that you have been m told ws considered offensive to others you are being disrespectful of the POV of other people that find the anthem something worthy of standing for . The situation you describe is actually very different now that I consider it by quite a few degrees because you are asking if the completely unconscious non act of not venerating Mary just because you are not in a situation where it is customary to venerate Mary is disrespectful. There is a difference between picking a fight and just going about one's business. I have already stated that being disrespectful is not always a thing to be avoided and being respectful of a POV you do not adhere to can sometimes be merely caving in to intimidation tactics. IMO Truthfulness may well outweigh being respectful if one cannot do both simultaneously. Just be honest ( after all the whole reason I would consider it necessary to be disrespectful of another's POV is to remain truthful) about the fact that what you are doing is being disrespectful in the eyes of those others. We cannot tell other people what they find offensive. We can only tell them we don't care if they find it offensive. I would not feel comfortable doing that if it was not in the service of what I think is incontrovertibly true. So if kneeling or sitting or stretching during a ceremony that others find almost sacred is somehow the only recourse in contradicting a falsehood then I would engage in it. I would not do it to make a political point I could make in a respectful way. That is my POV on the subject.

 

[grasping the after wind]

To me, America is one boat.
The analogy fits fine.

And I'm saying the crew members could FIGURE OUT a way to keep that boat afloat, if they'd stop WASTING TIME blaming others.
There's no time for nonsense.

We actually agree on a few things here. That blaming others is a waste of time. That individuals ought to be able to figure out how to keep their boat afloat without waiting for some parental substitute to bail them out. We just do not agree that the US is a single boat or that solutions to complex problems are easily arrived at and obvious to all or that the exact same solutions will work simultaneously and justly for all of those 300 + millions of individuals trying to stay afloat.

 

[grasping the after wind]

But yet you demand that they show veneration to the song and to the flag...why not rather make it mandatory that on every Memorial Day every American visit a military cemetary?

No one has made it mandatory to be employed by the NFL. No one has made it mandatory to go to a football game. Your analogy is no more apt to the current situation than if one on the opposite side of the issue were to make the analogy of going to a cemetery on Memorial Day and dancing on the graves of fallen soldiers. Although, there are people that venerate the flag and the anthem, I do not see any law that requires anything at all nor even a request to venerate only a request to stand in respect to the flag and anthem for what they represent. I do not find that an unreasonable thing to ask for or to do as long as it is a choice one can take without feeling one is being untruthful, if in fact one does not respect what those things represent or does not agree those things represent what they claim to represent. In either of those two cases one simply must admit they withhold respect. Which ,according to his words I quoted in an earlier post, is exactly what Kaepernick was expressing by first sitting and then kneeling. I believe, and this is my opinion, that the kneeling was meant to show the exact same level of lack of respect for the symbols and what they claim to represent while trying to be a somewhat sensitive to the feelings of those on the other side. A large part , but not all as I know some had been kneeling prior to this whose motivations would remain the same, of the kneeling and other shows of unity by the NFL in the last two weeks, again IMO, were not about anything more lofty than being mad at Trump.If my opinion on this is a correct one, then there are a group of people who claim one ought not get angry if they feel they have been disrespected that are now showing their anger for being disrespected.

 

[RDKirk]

I would think it would be disrespectful if you were attending a service or function in a Catholic Church. If it is your choice to enter there then you have put yourself in the position of being among those that are known for doing just that thing and then by making a point of letting them know you are not doing it you let them know that you have no regard their beliefs.

I'd point out first that the national anthem is imposed on players in their workplace, and clearly their employers are not particularly upset by the players staging a protest, so it's not imposed by their employers or by the NFL, but by the government.

Second, it was an Army Special Forces veteran who specifically advised "taking a knee" as the most respectful way of lodging a protest, and as a military retiree myself who has participated in a couple of hundred flag ceremonies, I see his logic.

Third, stadiums very often commit gross violations of Flag Code, and the ceremony ought to be protested on that grounds alone. As a person who has been in and led honor guards, my attitude would be, "Do it right or I'm not participating."

 

[essentialsaltes]

Chicago covers 234 square miles.**
"The South" (which I am presuming covers the states of Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee and Kentucky) covers 398,528 square miles. (land area only) ***

Close enough. Possibly you can explain to 2Timothy2:15 why you can't simply compare the numbers of deaths to conclude that white people are more likely to be killed by police than black people. In fact, the reverse is true.

 

[Dave-W]

Help me out here - as a non-American, I'm unclear why having a national anthem played at a (AIUI) non-international sports match is even a thing?

Here is a good TV news piece on that question. I hope it plays in your area:

We used to salute the Stars & Stripes like Nazis