Protestantism

[amariselle]

I found something in Wikipedia.

"The term "invincible ignorance" has its roots in Catholic theology, where — as the opposite of the term vincible ignorance — it is used to refer to the state of persons (such as pagans and infants) who are ignorant of the Christian message because they have not yet had an opportunity to hear it. The first Pope to use the term officially seems to have been Pope Pius IX in the allocution Singulari Quadam (9 December 1854) and the encyclicals Singulari Quidem (17 March 1856) and Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (10 August 1863). The term, however, is far older than that. Aquinas, for instance, uses it in his Summa Theologica (written 1265–1274), and discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen (3rd century).

When and how the term was taken by logicians to refer to the very different state of persons who pigheadedly refuse to attend to evidence (see Invincible ignorance fallacy) remains unclear, but one of its first uses was in the 1959 book Fallacy: The Counterfeit of Argument by W. Ward Fearnside and William B. Holther."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

As I said previously, my mother would not qualify for this, as she willingly and knowingly left the Catholic Church. I may qualify, but I may not, because I have been aware of a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches and claims for itself (being the only means of salvation) and I still "refuse to enter it."

Also, the Catholic Catechism teaches that those of other religions can be saved apart from faith in Christ as well (specifically, Muslims):

The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

841 "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

Nevermind the fact that Muslims deny Christ (In Islamic belief Allah (God) does not have a Son.) Jesus is no more than a prophet in Islamic belief, yet the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches they "adore the one merciful, God." This is false.

So, according to the Catholic Catechism, my mother in all likelihood is lost, because she willingly left the "one true Church", (but has not denied Christ) but a Muslim will be saved, even though they deny Christ as Saviour.

 

[amariselle]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

As I said previously, my mother would not qualify for this, as she willingly and knowingly left the Catholic Church. I may qualify, but I may not, because I have been aware of a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches and claims for itself (being the only means of salvation) and I still "refuse to enter it."

Also, the Catholic Catechism teaches that those of other religions can be saved apart from faith in Christ as well (specifically, Muslims):

The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

841 "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

Nevermind the fact that Muslims deny Christ (In Islamic belief Allah (God) does not have a Son.) Jesus is no more than a prophet in Islamic belief, yet the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches they "adore the one merciful, God." This is false.

So, according to the Catholic Catechism, my mother in all likelihood is lost, because she willingly left the "one true Church", (but has not denied Christ) but a Muslim will be saved, even though they deny Christ as Saviour.

Just as another point, this information is relevant to the OP as it is official Catholic teaching/tradition regarding Protestants, Evangelicals and other "non-Catholics."

It may not be something all Catholics agree with, but it is official doctrine of the Catholic Church nonetheless. So, important to consider.

 

[eleos1954]

Is there a religion that is not man made?

Strange question ;o)

I went and looked up the definition of religion. The only one I found that does not point to a spiritual belief is this one and yet still mentions "faith"

a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

With that, the Bible says:

2 Timothy 3:16
New Living Translation
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

So, yeah written by men ... but inspired by God

To me I think it has to do with: Creation. Do you believe in a "creator" or do you believe in evolution or something else that does not include a "creator"?

Even at that if one believes in evolution or something else it still takes "faith" or belief (more so than the Bible I think) that what is being "taught" or "thought" (by man) is correct. Theory ..... not provable

If you believe in God and that the Holy Bible is our creators inspired word, then basically you are in the same place, it takes faith . However, It says this in the Holy Bible.

2nd Peter 1:20-21

20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

and:

Isaiah 46:9-10

9“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

There were many prophecies (foretold) that came to pass and a lot of them are verified in secular history, so provable. For events to be foretold with detailed accuracy, before it happens is an phenominal thing. The more detailed it is the higher the probability becomes that it is possible. Also there are archeological artifacts that attest to things talked about in the Bible. So is everything "provable" in the Bible from secular history? No ... but is there enough to convince a person? Yes.

Back to your question: I guess it would be you don't even think about where you came from. Don't believe in anything. But even that ... is "man made" (human made) inside your own mind, because we are all human.

Very profound.

 

[Yarddog]

How do Catholics see Protestants?

Catholic documents say

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptised who are honoured by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."​

And

"who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
​

Protestants say all sorts of things about Catholics - there is no single Protestant view.

The Church sees all Christians as our brethren in Christ and have been trying to heal the wounds which have separated us. There has been an agreement signed between the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church on certain issues in which "language" has been an area of misunderstanding as what each group believes.
ELCA approves Lutheran-Catholic ecumenical document

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Hopefully, as Christians sit down and talk we can find that we are all brothers and sisters who share in the Spirit of God.

 

[eleos1954]

I am pretty certain that when we get to glory we will be made aware of all the truths and errors of our ignorant earthly religions. We will, then be embarrassed and apologetic to those whom we criticized for their views and arrogantly presented our views as the only truth possible.

Christ was not here about man made religions, perpetrated and created by man's beliefs in what is right and wrong...

Christ came to give salvation and all He wants is a relationship with those who believe Him to be God's Son who died in place of us, so we may have salvation. If you believe that He was the Christ and you believe that He died for you, and that you cannot get to heaven on your own merit, and that salvation is a free gift from Christ to those who believe and call on His name... He could care less it the sign on your place of worship is RC or Protestant or any other of the many denominations that preach Christ as our savior.

What a mess. I hope heaven has fences, nigh high ones, so that the warring parties will not see the others in bliss.

Actually the Bible does talk about this and also states the "size", Yes, high "walls" and more. Read Revelation 21 ;o)

 

[GingerBeer]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

As I said previously, my mother would not qualify for this, as she willingly and knowingly left the Catholic Church. I may qualify, but I may not, because I have been aware of a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches and claims for itself (being the only means of salvation) and I still "refuse to enter it."

Also, the Catholic Catechism teaches that those of other religions can be saved apart from faith in Christ as well (specifically, Muslims):

The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

841 "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

Nevermind the fact that Muslims deny Christ (In Islamic belief Allah (God) does not have a Son.) Jesus is no more than a prophet in Islamic belief, yet the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches they "adore the one merciful, God." This is false.

So, according to the Catholic Catechism, my mother in all likelihood is lost, because she willingly left the "one true Church", (but has not denied Christ) but a Muslim will be saved, even though they deny Christ as Saviour.

Why would anybody who knew "that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ" leave it or refuse to enter it?

 

[GingerBeer]

Back to your question: I guess it would be you don't even think about where you came from. Don't believe in anything. But even that ... is "man made" (human made) inside your own mind, because we are all human.

That is right; no one can escape the "man made" aspect of everything that human beings do.

 

[amariselle]

Why would anybody who knew "that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ" leave it or refuse to enter it?

Indeed. So the question is, was it? The answer to that requires careful research and Biblical study.

As to why my mother left it, that is mainly due to the Priest refusing to marry her and my Lutheran father (unless my father signed an official document promising to raise any children they had in the Catholic Church)

As to why I personally "refuse to enter it", that is because I do not agree with numerous official doctrines and traditions, too many to go into here. There was actually a time I did consider it, and I went to Mass many times, but certain beliefs and practices never sat well with me, so I started doing more research.

I am now firmly against joining.

 

[amariselle]

The Church sees all Christians as our brethren in Christ and have been trying to heal the wounds which have separated us. There has been an agreement signed between the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church on certain issues in which "language" has been an area of misunderstanding as what each group believes.
ELCA approves Lutheran-Catholic ecumenical document

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Hopefully, as Christians sit down and talk we can find that we are all brothers and sisters who share in the Spirit of God.

I hope people do more research into this "Ecumenical Movement".

 

[eleos1954]

Indeed. So the question is, was it? The answer to that requires careful research and Biblical study.

As to why my mother left it, that is mainly due to the Priest refusing to marry her and my Lutheran father (unless my father signed an official document promising to raise any children they had in the Catholic Church)

As to why I personally "refuse to enter it", that is because I do not agree with numerous official doctrines and traditions, too many to go into here. There was actually a time I did consider it, and I went to Mass many times, but certain beliefs and practices never sat well with me, so I started doing more research.

I am now firmly against joining.

The Catholic Church "system" is based on both scripture and traditional writings. Scripture is from God, tradition is from men. The two cannot be fully reconciled with one another. So, bible, bible only.

 

[Albion]

Why would anybody who knew "that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ" leave it or refuse to enter it?

That seems like a strange question. Yes, anyone who actually believes that a certain denomination is the only one accepted by God and that membership in it is required for salvation is likely to be convinced to stay...but only them.

Those who know the claim to be bogus are not going to be governed by such a claim, not anymore than refugees from Scientology or the Jehovah's Witnesses did in their own situations.

 

[eleos1954]

I hope people do more research into this "Ecumenical Movement".

The Catholic church system is based on both scripture and catholic traditional writings. The two can not be fully reconciled with one another. So, bible and bible only.

 

[Yarddog]

So, according to the Catholic Catechism, my mother in all likelihood is lost, because she willingly left the "one true Church", (but has not denied Christ) but a Muslim will be saved, even though they deny Christ as Saviour.

No.

 

[Albion]

So, according to the Catholic Catechism, my mother in all likelihood is lost, because she willingly left the "one true Church", (but has not denied Christ) but a Muslim will be saved, even though they deny Christ as Saviour.

...and it's certainly true of Catholics themselves (as shown by a nationwide poll).

 

[amariselle]

The Catholic church system is based on both scripture and catholic traditional writings. The two can not be fully reconciled with one another. So, bible and bible only.

Yes. And when "tradition" contradicts Scripture, I'll go with Scripture.

 

[amariselle]

...and it's certainly true of Catholics themselves (as shown by a nationwide poll).

Just out of curiousity, do you have the link to that poll?

 

[Albion]

Just out of curiousity, do you have the link to that poll?

No, what I remember is that all the major denominations or groups were polled--and by some leading polling organization like Gallop or Pew, but I cannot remember which one--and they found that, among Catholics, only 9% believed that salvation would be denied to someone who had never heard of Jesus but lived morally according to the tenets of his own religion. Something like that.

As you might expect, this was a much lower percentage than for any Protestant denomination. When this was, I also don't recall, but I believe it was near the time when the Pope had received some attention for saying, unofficially of course, something along those same lines. The current Pope has said something similar, but in this case it was JP II.

 

[amariselle]

No.

I quoted the Catechism directly.

 

[amariselle]

No, what I remember is that all the major denominations or groups were polled--and by some leading polling organization like Gallop or Pew, but I cannot remember which one--and they found that, among Catholics, only 9% believed that salvation would be denied to someone who had never heard of Jesus but lived morally according to the tenets of his own religion. Something like that.

As you might expect, this was a much lower percentage than for any Protestant denomination. When this was, I also don't recall, but I believe it was near the time when the Pope had received some attention for saying, unofficially of course, something along those same lines. The current Pope has said something similar, but in this case it was JP II.

Okay, thank you.

 

[eleos1954]

The Church sees all Christians as our brethren in Christ and have been trying to heal the wounds which have separated us. There has been an agreement signed between the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church on certain issues in which "language" has been an area of misunderstanding as what each group believes.
ELCA approves Lutheran-Catholic ecumenical document

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Hopefully, as Christians sit down and talk we can find that we are all brothers and sisters who share in the Spirit of God.

Just out of curiousity, do you have the link to that poll?

Doubt the Lord cares about polls