Protestantism

[redleghunter]

So what's purgatory?

Now we are getting somewhere.

 

[GingerBeer]

What does that exactly mean?

It means that "Protestants say all sorts of things about Catholics - there is no single Protestant view."

Haven't you noticed? Some say nice things. Some say really harsh things. A few condemn Catholicism as totally wicked and pagan. That is very different from the official Catholic documents quoted in the original post which are rather kindly in tone.

 

[GingerBeer]

Now we are getting somewhere.

So what is it? "It" being "purgatory". And where are we getting?

 

[Basil the Great]

Purgatory has kind of been forgotten, even by some of the Catholic bishops. I remember when the late Sen. Byrd of WV died. A Catholic bishop from WV said that he had gone on to be with the Lord, apparently meaning that he went to Heaven. No mention was made that he might have to spend some time in Purgatory, and as I recall, Sen. Byrd was not even a Catholic.

 

[redleghunter]

It means that "Protestants say all sorts of things about Catholics - there is no single Protestant view."

Haven't you noticed? Some say nice things. Some say really harsh things. A few condemn Catholicism as totally wicked and pagan. That is very different from the official Catholic documents quoted in the original post which are rather kindly in tone.

I was raised Catholic. I've heard the gamut too about the heretic Prots and the nice talk all those baptized properly will go to heaven but the Prots in the projects.

So it rubs both ways. Especially the RF at Free Republic has everyone not SSPX going to hell or at least Purgatory.

So let's dispense with this is a Prot deal. It's not.

I had a Catholic on a now closed thread tell me that since I left the RC church my indelibly marked soul would be known in Hell.

 

[GingerBeer]

I was raised Catholic. I've heard the gamut too about the heretic Prots and the nice talk all those baptized properly will go to heaven but the Prots in the projects.

So it rubs both ways. Especially the RF at Free Republic has everyone not SSPX going to hell or at least Purgatory.

So let's dispense with this is a Prot deal. It's not.

I had a Catholic on a now closed thread tell me that since I left the RC church my indelibly marked soul would be known in Hell.

There's a big difference between some random Catholic telling you something and what is officially stated as Catholic doctrine isn't there?

 

[redleghunter]

There's a big difference between some random Catholic telling you something and what is officially stated as Catholic doctrine isn't there?

All of the above I gave you is official RC teachings.

It all depends on which infallible teaching one sees as more authoritative.

 

[GingerBeer]

All of the above I gave you is official RC teachings.

It all depends on which infallible teaching one sees as more authoritative.

How do you know what's "infallible teaching", is there a check list or a set of criteria that marks something as infallible?

 

[GingerBeer]

Purgatory has kind of been forgotten, even by some of the Catholic bishops. I remember when the late Sen. Byrd of WV died. A Catholic bishop from WV said that he had gone on to be with the Lord, apparently meaning that he went to Heaven. No mention was made that he might have to spend some time in Purgatory, and as I recall, Sen. Byrd was not even a Catholic.

Maybe the expression was a euphemism for "he is dead"? It is like saying "he's passed on" or "he's gone to a better place".

 

[amariselle]

How do Catholics see Protestants?

Catholic documents say

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptised who are honoured by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."​

And

"who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
​

Protestants say all sorts of things about Catholics - there is no single Protestant view.

There's no easy answer to the question "how do Catholics see Protestants?" (despite the two quotes you chose).

Often there is an enormous difference between how individual Catholics see Protestants and how official Catholic doctrine and tradition "sees" them.

To understand that more fully takes careful research and study of official Catholic teaching and tradition.

 

[GingerBeer]

To understand that more fully takes careful research and study of official Catholic teaching and tradition.

Isn't your last statement contradicting your earlier statement "Often there is an enormous difference between how individual Catholics see Protestants and how official Catholic doctrine and tradition "sees" them."? The quotes in the original post are apparently "official Catholic teaching".

 

[amariselle]

Isn't your last statement contradicting your earlier statement "Often there is an enormous difference between how individual Catholics see Protestants and how official Catholic doctrine and tradition "sees" them."? The quotes in the original post are apparently "official Catholic teaching".

My point is, those quotes are only two selections and to actually understand the comprehensive official Catholic teaching and tradition on Protestants, Evangelicals and all "non-Catholics" you have to do more thorough research.

 

[GingerBeer]

My point is, those quotes are only two selections and to actually understand the comprehensive official Catholic teaching and tradition on Protestants, Evangelicals and all "non-Catholics" you have to do more thorough research.

Have you read all the documents from the second Vatican council?

 

[amariselle]

Have you read all the documents from the second Vatican council?

Not as of yet. I am working on researching everything, and it is a process. What I have discovered thus far, however, is that the answer to your question, in regards to official Catholic teaching and tradition, is not simple.

In regards to how individual Catholics see Protestants and all non-Catholics, that too is complicated. In my own life (my mother was raised Catholic) my maternal grandparents never seemed to regard us as not Christian, though I was raised attending a Lutheran church. I asked my mom what her parents thought of her leaving the Catholic Church, she told me they didn't ever really express any concern to her over this or see it as a major issue. However, I have had other Catholics tell me personally that attending a Protestant church "doesn't count."

And indeed, it is clear in official Catholic teaching that the only hope a non-Catholic would have is the defense of "invincible ignorance". (Which seems to be a more recent addition to Catholic doctrine). Also, as my mother chose to leave the Catholic Church, that defense would likely not apply to her, as she was raised Catholic and should have known better.

 

[JacksBratt]

It's Christian. That's the religion.

That's just a name, given by mankind, for people who follow the bible due to the entire OT and NT having Christ as the overall theme.

Christ never mentions "Christian". The term was first given to the disciples when they were preaching the gospel, in Antioch, as a mockery.

Now, in today's times, it is meant to represent anyone who follows Jesus. And, that is logical.

However, Christ preached to follow Him, Go into the world and make disciples. He didn't preach that we should become Christians.

Men, from all different attitudes and views, have taken the word of God to have different ideals and thus formed different conditions and charters that these different churches hold as their belief.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

It's the infighting between admitted children of God that is the problem.

 

[GingerBeer]

Not as of yet. I am working on researching everything, and it is a process. What I have discovered thus far, however, is that the answer to your question, in regards to official Catholic teaching and tradition, is not simple.

In regards to how individual Catholics see Protestants and all non-Catholics, that too is complicated. In my own life (my mother was raised Catholic) my maternal grandparents never seemed to regard us as not Christian, though I was raised attending a Lutheran church. I asked my mom what her parents thought of her leaving the Catholic Church, she told me they didn't ever really express any concern to her over this or see it as a major issue. However, I have had other Catholics tell me personally that attending a Protestant church "doesn't count."

And indeed, it is clear in official Catholic teaching that the only hope a non-Catholic would have is the defense of "invincible ignorance". (Which seems to be a more recent addition to Catholic doctrine). Also, as my mother chose to leave the Catholic Church, that defense would likely not apply to her, as she was raised Catholic and should have known better.

Interesting. Invincible ignorance. I'll look it up and see when it was first used in official documents if I can find it.

 

[GingerBeer]

Christ never mentions "Christian". The term was first given to the disciples when they were preaching the gospel, in Antioch, as a mockery.

As mockery? Does the passage say that?

 

[GingerBeer]

I found something in Wikipedia.

"The term "invincible ignorance" has its roots in Catholic theology, where — as the opposite of the term vincible ignorance — it is used to refer to the state of persons (such as pagans and infants) who are ignorant of the Christian message because they have not yet had an opportunity to hear it. The first Pope to use the term officially seems to have been Pope Pius IX in the allocution Singulari Quadam (9 December 1854) and the encyclicals Singulari Quidem (17 March 1856) and Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (10 August 1863). The term, however, is far older than that. Aquinas, for instance, uses it in his Summa Theologica (written 1265–1274), and discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen (3rd century).

When and how the term was taken by logicians to refer to the very different state of persons who pigheadedly refuse to attend to evidence (see Invincible ignorance fallacy) remains unclear, but one of its first uses was in the 1959 book Fallacy: The Counterfeit of Argument by W. Ward Fearnside and William B. Holther."

 

[JacksBratt]

As mockery? Does the passage say that?

It seems that this is the context in which they were called Christian.. by the non believers, as a mockery..

Look here: Acts 11:26 regarding the word Christian?

Referring to Acts 11:26: Did the people (unbelievers) of Antioch call the "Believers" Christian, or did the Believers start calling themselves Christian first in Antioch?


Here is what I mean: Acts 11:26 The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” I have this feeling in the tone of these two verses that the word "Christian" was more of a mockery since it came from unbelievers, like we have "goody-two-shoes", especially the way Agrippa said it to Paul, I could almost hear the rest of Agrippa's audience laughing at this!? And 1 Peter 4:16 "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter." sort of supports my argument!?


It seems that this mock-name Christian was getting around, and the disciples were resenting it, so 1 Peter 4:16 tells them not to be ashamed (for they mocked our Lord also) but that they should glorify God in this matter!? Your thoughts fellow Believers?

 

[GingerBeer]

It seems that this is the context in which they were called Christian.. by the non believers, as a mockery..

Look here: Acts 11:26 regarding the word Christian?

Referring to Acts 11:26: Did the people (unbelievers) of Antioch call the "Believers" Christian, or did the Believers start calling themselves Christian first in Antioch?


Here is what I mean: Acts 11:26 The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” I have this feeling in the tone of these two verses that the word "Christian" was more of a mockery since it came from unbelievers, like we have "goody-two-shoes", especially the way Agrippa said it to Paul, I could almost hear the rest of Agrippa's audience laughing at this!? And 1 Peter 4:16 "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter." sort of supports my argument!?


It seems that this mock-name Christian was getting around, and the disciples were resenting it, so 1 Peter 4:16 tells them not to be ashamed (for they mocked our Lord also) but that they should glorify God in this matter!? Your thoughts fellow Believers?

Have you checked the Greek used in that passage? Pay close attention to the word χρηματίζω [chrematizo]. It's the word translated as "were called". If you have a lexicon look it up. It's interesting. The word is used in these passages:

Mat 2:12; Luk 2:26; Act 10:22; Heb 8:5; Heb 11:7; Heb 12:25.​