"Protestant Genocides"

[Root of Jesse]

Except for the Crusades against religious Communities declared "heretical" by the Catholic Church (the Cathars in Southern France, for example), where the Catholic Church's leadership (Pope Innocent III) gathered and sent a fighting force to convert/eliminate those holding to the "heresy".

The "Albigensian Crusade", by which this is commonly known, ... was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 2 million persons over the course of 20 years (1209 - 1229) ...

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia

As if there wasn't an attempt to reform them first? Plus the murder of his diplomat? Also, it was a political issue as well:
On becoming Pope in 1198, Innocent III resolved to deal with the Cathars and sent a delegation of friars to the province of Languedoc to assess the situation. The Cathars of Languedoc were seen as not showing proper respect for the authority of the French king or the local Catholic Church, and their leaders were being protected by powerful nobles,[20] who had clear interest in independence from the king.

One of the most powerful, Count Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, openly supported the Cathars and their independence movement. He refused to assist the delegation. He was excommunicated in May 1207 and an interdict was placed on his lands. The senior papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau, seen as responsible for these actions, was killed and his death was attributed to supporters of the count.[10] This brought down more penalties on Count Raymond, but he soon agreed to reconcile with the Church and the excommunication was lifted. At the Council of Avignon (1209) Raymond was again excommunicated for not fulfilling the conditions of ecclesiastical reconciliation.[10] King Philip II of France decided to act against those nobles who permitted Catharism within their lands and undermined secular authority. Though the actual crusade lasted only two months, the internal conflict between the north and the south of France continued for some twenty years.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Amein, And thousands of other times..... all around the world through history....

Still we trust in YHWH, for HE is FAITHFUL and JUST:
Psalm 9:12-14Common English Bible (CEB)
12 Because the one who avenges bloodshed
remembers those who suffer;

As usual, with no particulars to speak of...

 

[A_Thinker]

As if there wasn't an attempt to reform them first? Plus the murder of his diplomat? Also, it was a political issue as well:
On becoming Pope in 1198, Innocent III resolved to deal with the Cathars and sent a delegation of friars to the province of Languedoc to assess the situation. The Cathars of Languedoc were seen as not showing proper respect for the authority of the French king or the local Catholic Church, and their leaders were being protected by powerful nobles,[20] who had clear interest in independence from the king.

One of the most powerful, Count Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, openly supported the Cathars and their independence movement. He refused to assist the delegation. He was excommunicated in May 1207 and an interdict was placed on his lands. The senior papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau, seen as responsible for these actions, was killed and his death was attributed to supporters of the count.[10] This brought down more penalties on Count Raymond, but he soon agreed to reconcile with the Church and the excommunication was lifted. At the Council of Avignon (1209) Raymond was again excommunicated for not fulfilling the conditions of ecclesiastical reconciliation.[10] King Philip II of France decided to act against those nobles who permitted Catharism within their lands and undermined secular authority. Though the actual crusade lasted only two months, the internal conflict between the north and the south of France continued for some twenty years.

Although there was a political element to the Albigensian Crusade (i.e. Pope Innocent promised the lands of Southern France to France's northern nobles ... and King Philip II largely allowed the Pope's forces to pursue the Crusade, though he himself declined to participate), ... Pope Innocent III commissioned and sent the Crusader army ... and Catholic churchmen (reporting back to the Pope) led the Crusader effort.

Also, although the major resistance to the Pope's Crusade revolved around the noble Count Raymond VI, it was the people of southern France who suffered the effects of the Crusade. In Béziers, the first city attacked, Catholics were given an opportunity to flee the city before attack. But Béziers' Catholics opted to stay and defend their Cathar neighbors, who were well regarded in the town. Subsequently, the Crusading army breached the city walls and killed every inhabitant of the city, Catholic and Cathar alike, though many of the city's inhabitants had fled to the sanctuary of the city's Catholic Cathedral.

After the crushing of Béziers, the Crusaders moved on to a series of cities and towns where Cathars were in existence. The following gives a timeline of the various battles and seiges of the Crusade ...

Timeline of the Battles and Seiges of the Albigensian Crusade

Battles and Seiges:

Initiation of the Crusade (1209),
Béziers (1209),
Carcassonne (1209),
Bram (1210),
Siege of Cabaret (Lastours) (1210),
Minerve (1210),
Termes (1210),
Rendition of Cabaret (Lastours) (1210),
Lavaur (1211),
First seige of Toulouse (1211),
Castelnaudary (1211),
Moissac (1211),
Pujol (1213),
Muret (1213),
Surrender of Toulouse (1215),
Beaucaire (1216),
Montgrenier (1217),
Peyrepertuse (1217),
Ramon VI re-enters Toulouse, followed by the second siege of Toulouse (1217),
Marmande (1218-9),
Third seige of Toulouse (1219),
Castelnaudary (1220),
Montréal (1221),
The Trencavel Estates (1224),
Start of the Second Crusade (1225),
Carcassonne (1226),
Avignon (1226),
Carcassonne (1240),
Peyrepertuse (1240),
First siege of Montsegúr (1241),
Avignonet (1242),
Taillebourg (1242),
Siege and fall of Montségur ( Montsegùr) (1243-4),
Ramon Trencavel submits at Béziers (1247),
Quéribus (1255),
Annexation of the Languedoc (1271).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

"Bad" Protestants — North Forest

This site above gives a brief summary of bad protestants.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'm currently in a discussion with someone about the excesses of our faiths and he states that the results of the Inquisition pales in comparison to the "Protestant Genocides". I don't know what they supposedly were but as a reader of history I'm not familiar with such. Was there anything such as that or do you think he may be blowing this up out of proportion.

On a somewhat related note he tried to convince me that King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I were Protestants but I said that they were "Protestants" only because of political expediency which he, of course, refused to accept.

From Wikipedia - European wars of religion - Wikipedia

The major impact of the Thirty Years' War, in which mercenary armies were extensively used, was the devastation of entire regions scavenged bare by the foraging armies. Episodes of widespread famine and disease devastated the population of the German states and, to a lesser extent, the Low Countries and Italy, while bankrupting many of the powers involved. The war ended with the Treaty of Münster, a part of the wider Peace of Westphalia.

During the war, Germany's population was reduced by 30% on average. In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two thirds of the population died. The population of the Czech lands declined by a third. The Swedish (Protestant) armies alone destroyed 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns. Huge damage was done to monasteries, churches and other religious institutions. The war had proved disastrous for the German "Holy Roman Empire". Germany lost population and territory, and was henceforth divided into hundreds of largely impotent semi-independent states. The Imperial power retreated to Austria and the Habsburg lands. The Netherlands and Switzerland were confirmed in independence. The peace institutionalised the Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist religious divide in Germany, with populations either converting, or moving to areas controlled by rulers of their own faith.

We hear much of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, when French Huguenots (Protestants) were massacred. Less often publicised is the fact they brought quite a lot of the violence upon their own heads. From Wikipedia again - Huguenots - Wikipedia

Fanatically opposed to the Catholic Church, the Huguenots attacked priests, monks, nuns, monasticism, images, and church buildings. Most of the cities in which the Huguenots gained a hold saw iconoclast riots in which altars and images in churches, and sometimes the buildings themselves were torn down. Ancient relics and texts were destroyed; the bodies of saints exhumed and burned. The cities of Bourges, Montauban and Orléans saw substantial activity in this regard.

The Huguenots transformed themselves into a definitive political movement thereafter. Protestant preachers rallied a considerable army and a formidable cavalry, which came under the leadership of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny. Henry of Navarre and the House of Bourbon allied themselves to the Huguenots, adding wealth and holdings to the Protestant strength, which at its height grew to sixty fortified cities, and posed a serious threat to the Catholic crown and Paris over the next three decades.

I've also got no doubt I could find a lot more Protestant atrocities on the net if I went looking for them. It would also help if we put the Inquisition in perspective to other regimes of the time. Here's a reference which might clarify the muddy waters a little.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-truth-about-the-spanish-inquisition

How many executions was Henry VIII responsible for?
It is impossible to tell for sure, and historians have no definitive number. It is estimated that anywhere from 57,000 to 72,000 people were executed during Henry’s 37 years’ reign, but this is likely to be an exaggeration.

Henry’s break with Papal authority, and his second marriage – which was not sanctioned by the Pope – caused a rift between Henry and certain individuals at court, many of whom he knew well, and in some cases was close to.

Those who either refused to adhere to his Act of Succession or those considered to be heretics were executed, but Henry also executed numerous potential rivals to the throne; two wives and their alleged lovers; leaders of the Pilgrimage of Grace, and his trusted advisor, Thomas Cromwell.

Henry VIII left the Inquistion in the dust for executions. Funny how Protestants hardly ever mention this fact?!

http://strangenotions.com/spanish-inquisition/

No one knows exactly how many people perished because of the Inquisition, but it is thought to be between 3,000 and 5,000 people during the 350 years of its existence.

That's an average of about 9 to 20 people per year. Henry's average ranges from 1540 to 1945 per year.

As a former Protestant turned Catholic, I'm afraid Protestants are quite guilty of distorting the truth when it comes to Catholicism. Or as the old saying goes, the winner writes the history books.

Then there was the massacre at Drogheda under Cromwell's Protestant command - Siege of Drogheda - Wikipedia

According to John Morrill, the massacre at Drogheda, "was without straightforward parallel in 17th century British or Irish history". The only comparable case in Cromwell's career was that at Basing House, where 100 soldiers out of 400 were killed after a successful assault. "So the Drogheda massacre does stand out for its mercilessness, for its combination of ruthlessness and calculation, for its combination of hot- and cold-bloodiness".[48]

Want some more?

 

[A_Thinker]

Henry VIII left the Inquistion in the dust for executions. Funny how Protestants hardly ever mention this fact?!

WHO champions Henry VIII ???

 

[Root of Jesse]

Although there was a political element to the Albigensian Crusade (i.e. Pope Innocent promised the lands of Southern France to France's northern nobles ... and King Philip II largely allowed the Pope's forces to pursue the Crusade, though he himself declined to participate), ... Pope Innocent III commissioned and sent the Crusader army ... and Catholic churchmen (reporting back to the Pope) led the Crusader effort.

Also, although the major resistance to the Pope's Crusade revolved around the noble Count Raymond VI, it was the people of southern France who suffered the effects of the Crusade. In Béziers, the first city attacked, Catholics were given an opportunity to flee the city before attack. But Béziers' Catholics opted to stay and defend their Cathar neighbors, who were well regarded in the town. Subsequently, the Crusading army breached the city walls and killed every inhabitant of the city, Catholic and Cathar alike, though many of the city's inhabitants had fled to the sanctuary of the city's Catholic Cathedral.

After the crushing of Béziers, the Crusaders moved on to a series of cities and towns where Cathars were in existence. The following gives a timeline of the various battles and seiges of the Crusade ...

Timeline of the Battles and Seiges of the Albigensian Crusade

Battles and Seiges:

Initiation of the Crusade (1209),
Béziers (1209),
Carcassonne (1209),
Bram (1210),
Siege of Cabaret (Lastours) (1210),
Minerve (1210),
Termes (1210),
Rendition of Cabaret (Lastours) (1210),
Lavaur (1211),
First seige of Toulouse (1211),
Castelnaudary (1211),
Moissac (1211),
Pujol (1213),
Muret (1213),
Surrender of Toulouse (1215),
Beaucaire (1216),
Montgrenier (1217),
Peyrepertuse (1217),
Ramon VI re-enters Toulouse, followed by the second siege of Toulouse (1217),
Marmande (1218-9),
Third seige of Toulouse (1219),
Castelnaudary (1220),
Montréal (1221),
The Trencavel Estates (1224),
Start of the Second Crusade (1225),
Carcassonne (1226),
Avignon (1226),
Carcassonne (1240),
Peyrepertuse (1240),
First siege of Montsegúr (1241),
Avignonet (1242),
Taillebourg (1242),
Siege and fall of Montségur ( Montsegùr) (1243-4),
Ramon Trencavel submits at Béziers (1247),
Quéribus (1255),
Annexation of the Languedoc (1271).

Amazing that the Church didn't actually have an army to do all this, isn't it? There was obviously a civic connection to what was happening.

 

[A_Thinker]

Amazing that the Church didn't actually have an army to do all this, isn't it? There was obviously a civic connection to what was happening.

Pope Innocent III raised a mercenary army by promising lands in the south of France to the nobility ... and papal indulgences to all those who fought ....

 

[Root of Jesse]

Pope Innocent III raised a mercenary army by promising lands in the south of France to the nobility ... and papal indulgences to all those who fought ....

Well, if the purpose wasn't just, why would people go and fight, voluntarily?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Well, if the purpose wasn't just, why would people go and fight, voluntarily?

So we know that a cause is just if people volunteer to fight for it?

The Americans: 15 Who Left the U.S. to Join ISIS

 

[Root of Jesse]

So we know that a cause is just if people volunteer to fight for it?

The Americans: 15 Who Left the U.S. to Join ISIS

Or because the powers that be at the time declared a movement as dangerous and asked for help to suppress it.

 

[A_Thinker]

Well, if the purpose wasn't just, why would people go and fight, voluntarily?

You know better than that ...

The mercenary army that took Beziers killed every living soul in the city (man, woman, child, Catholic, and Cathar).

Does that sound like they were fighting for a "just cause" ... or that the Cathars were, in any way, dangerous ???

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

It is unfair to equate actions by Protestants to Protestant actions, in a similar vein to Catholic actions being equated to actions by Catholics. For instance, Catholics sacked Constantinople in 1204, but Pope Innocent had expressly forbid actions against fellow Christians. Now this makes it difficult to say what evils are expressly due to Protestantism and what due to evil caused by Protestant men, not Protestantism as an idealogy per se. Protestants anyway may have considered themselves utterly depraved anyway, so we are open to the idea that people sinned, even very important ones; Calvin had Servetus killed, probably a sin I would think.

Protestant actions against monasteries and priests probably apply under the formal definition of 'genocide', but people Henry VIII executed or 30 years war traumas hardly apply, as they are not explicitly derived from Protestant doctrine but standard human ingroup-outgroup struggles. I would make the same argument for Cromwell in Ireland: it was about suppressing Irish support for the exiled monarchy and establishing the Protestant plantations to pacify Ireland, less about Protestantism than about Real Politik.

But this is a difficult topic, as where to lay the blame for the sinful actions of men is always very much partisan. I don't think any form of Christianity is inherently more prone to violence or 'genocide', as to do no harm and turning the other cheek is inbuilt dogmas of the faith. Mediaeval crusaders believed they were doing laudable work, saving souls from falling into heresy and ending up in perdition. Similarly Protestants in the 16th tried to save the peasantry from the machinations of Satan as they perceived popery to be and suppressed the priesthood. What one will perceive as genocide or where one will apportion blame is very much related to ethnicity and background. No Irishman would forgive Cromwell and few would beg mea culpa for their own. Man is fantastically good at excusing ourselves of our sins.

 

[4x4toy]

I'd like to see some of the torture devices used by the protestants and the catholics .

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

A note on the Albigensian crusade:

A big part thereof was overthrowing the powerful counts of Toulouse for the French Crown, so the French monarchy kept up the pressure far longer than seems reasonable to suppress heresy. It was about centralisation of power. In defence of the Catholic clergy, some did speak out against excesses committed. The famous quote on Beziers of "kill them all, God will sort out his own" is remembered because such beliefs and actions were condemned by many at the time, not because it was lauded.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You know better than that ...

The mercenary army that took Beziers killed every living soul in the city (man, woman, child, Catholic, and Cathar).

Does that sound like they were fighting for a "just cause" ... or that the Cathars were, in any way, dangerous ???

It's human for a group to take a purpose and subvert that purpose. That's not the fault of the orginator of the idea. Stop looking at history through modern eyes. In 'those days', being of the same faith was a matter of good order and discipline, which is why, when the Huns or whomever converted to Catholicism, their entire tribe did. It is a recent innovation that you have freedom to hold a different faith than everyone else. To be the same faith as the particular ruler was a sign of loyalty, and to be of different faith was to be dis-loyal.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Meaning that Henry VIII was Protestant in name only then?

Henry VIII had no love of Protestants/Protestantism--and had no problem having Protestants killed (for example, William Tyndale). So Henry was neither, not really. In contrast to the continental reformers such as Luther who did not desire a break from the Catholic Church, but were excommunicated anyway; Henry intentionally broke communion in order that he could do what he wanted in order to secure an heir for his throne. Henry's motives were political. But Henry's actions made it essential for the English Church to figure out how to go on from there--the ultimate solution was, after a great deal of turmoil, to identify itself as a Via Media, a middle way, between Protestantism and Catholicism. But Henry himself didn't seem to be particularly interested at all in the theological debates on the continent, he just wanted a son--by any means necessary it seemed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Except for the Crusades against religious Communities declared "heretical" by the Catholic Church (the Cathars in Southern France, for example), where the Catholic Church's leadership (Pope Innocent III) gathered and sent a fighting force to convert/eliminate those holding to the "heresy".

The "Albigensian Crusade", by which this is commonly known, ... was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 2 million persons over the course of 20 years (1209 - 1229) ...

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia

I'm not sure why you put the word heresy in scare quotes. Catharism really was heretical. The brutal violence committed against them was unjustifiable murder, but that doesn't stop the fact that their teachings were far outside the boundaries of orthodoxy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Fortunately the wars of religion are over, Catholics and Protestants have--for the most part--stopped killing one another since the 18th century. That's a good thing.

Pretending either side is innocent is delusional. Blood was spilled by both upon both--nobody won, everyone lost. Because when Christians kill Christians we all lose.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[A_Thinker]

I'm not sure why you put the word heresy in scare quotes. Catharism really was heretical. The brutal violence committed against them was unjustifiable murder, but that doesn't stop the fact that their teachings were far outside the boundaries of orthodoxy.

-CryptoLutheran

I wasn't aware that the Cathars were claiming to be Catholic ...