Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[tadoflamb]

Originally Posted by tadoflamb View Post:
Congregations electing their pastor.




Yes, a Protestant invention. That's why we send up white smoke signals if we've chosen a new leader and black smoke, caused by burning the ballots, if no candidate has gotten the requisite votes. Ultimately, we send a little man out onto the balcony to announce the results.

That would be nice, but where did you get this idea that the flock gets to choose their shepherd?

 

[tadoflamb]

I will appoint for you shepherds.. (Jeremiah 3:15)

 

[Rev Randy]

Okay by me. So, you can add these things to your list of Protestant errors:

Devotion to a Sacred Heart of "Mary".

EUCHARISTIC ADORATION, the belief that the bread is Christ. (the worship of the created, rather than the Creator)
Eucharistic adoration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Naw. We are listing errors. But I'm thinking of adding your definition in parentheses.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Okay by me. So, you can add these things to your list of Protestant errors:

Devotion to a Sacred Heart of "Mary".

EUCHARISTIC ADORATION, the belief that the bread is Christ. (the worship of the created, rather than the Creator)
Eucharistic adoration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This thread is about Protestant errors; you usually attack these things as "Catholic" errors. Is everyone wrong?

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is a new error to add, it is theological and is mainly held by Pentecostal & Charismatic christians. The new error is #35 just after "Prosperity gospel".

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
4. Jesus spoke in parables most of the time so his words are mostly metaphorical.
5. Sola Scriptura
6. Prima Scriptura
7. Personal interpretation of scripture as normative
8. Arminianism.
9. Faith alone
10. Antinomianism. In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone.[/I] -- Wikipedia
11. Total depravity
12. Unconditional election
13. Limited atonement
14. Irresistible grace
15. Perseverance of the saints This error is the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
16. Once saved always saved.
17. Double predestination. In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul
18. Lapsarianism
    1. Supralapsaranism.
    2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.
19. Penal substitutionary atonement. This error refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.[/I]
20. Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
21. Infant dedication (not baptism).
22. Baptismal Submersion-ism. Baptism requires the candidate for baptism to be fully submerged under water.
23. Exclusive Credo-baptism-ism. Only people who have reached an age at which they can give a credible profession of faith are legitimate candidates for baptism.
24. Faith alone Regenerates. One is "born again" when one says & believes the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
25. Believer's baptism is primarily a public testimony of one's faith. This error rejects baptism as the washing away of one's sins and as the ordinary means by which God brings about the new birth.
26. Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community. This error rejects baptism as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
27. The Lord's supper as sign and symbol of Christ's presence. This error rejects the biblical teaching that in the Holy Eucharist the bread and wine are the Saviour's body and blood.
28. Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [Some Protestant groups have dropped all sacraments.]
29. Rapture theories:
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.
30. Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John.
    1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
    2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.
31. A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
32. Dispensationalism This error teaches that scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
33. The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching". This error teaches that Christ's teaching in Matthew chapter five through seven is largely not applicable under the new covenant.
34. Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
35. Disease and sickness are from Satan. Christians are never sick or diseased because of God but always because they are oppressed by the devil.
36. Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
37. Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
38. The papacy is the antichrist.
39. A specific pope will be the antichrist.
40. Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
41. Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
42. Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
43. For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
44. Trail of blood Also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
45. Belief that there is conspiracy involving "The Jesuit oath". This error teaches that there is an oath that among other things is alleged to say "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons". It is akin to the belief in "The Protocols of the Enders of Zion" as a real Jewish conspiracy to destroy non-Jews.
46. Errors about indulgences:
    1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
    2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.
47. Sermon centric worship.
    1. The sermon ought to be the focus of church-worship-services.
    2. The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use in communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
48. The One True Church is not a visible institution.
49. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
50. Denominationalism.
51. Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
52. Rejection of clergy-laity distinction in the church.
53. Seminary and Bible colleges damage one's faith and ought to be avoided.
54. Pastors and elders need not be graduates of a seminary or an accredited bible college.
55. Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" This error teaches that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building].
56. Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
57. Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
58. Representative Democracy as Church government.
59. Seeker sensitive churches.
60. Accountability partners.
61. Altar calls.
62. Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.

 

[Standing Up]

How do we know where the fringes are? Up to this point, as far as I can tell, if you deviate a little bit from Catholicism you're a protestant. If you deviate a lot from Catholicism, you're on the fringes. And, coming to think of it, I don't believe you're a protestant. Are you a protestant?

You're thinking EO is a Protestant group then.

As for me, like the icon says, Christian.

 

[Standing Up]

This thread is about Protestant errors; you usually attack these things as "Catholic" errors. Is everyone wrong?

From the citation:

Eucharistic adoration is a practice in the Roman Catholic, Anglo-Catholic and Lutheran traditions, in which the Blessed Sacrament is exposed and adored by the faithful

Is this wrong about A and L?

 

[Standing Up]

There is a new error to add, it is theological and is mainly held by Pentecostal & Charismatic christians.

Many of the things on your list have been shown to be true, rather than error. Other things are held by those outside the Protestant norm. So, in the interest of accuracy, here is the beginning of a new list. But feel free to correct these things.

1) Eucharist Adoration (the worship of the created bread, rather than the Creator)
2) Accepting bad theology from children (devotions to "sacred" hearts)
3) Believing visions as truth that contradict scripture (Fatima)
4) Accepting "regenerative" baptisms of heretical groups as on par with Christian baptism

No doubt, more errors will be found.

 

[Standing Up]

Naw. We are listing errors. But I'm thinking of adding your definition in parentheses.

Did not know you thought the bread was flesh also. But yeah, EO errors, like RC errors, would be a different thread.

 

[Standing Up]

The rest of your post is a red herring which is not worth following.

Simple question. Do you reject Ellen White (SDA) because she's a woman and/or because of her theology? If you can't answer the question, are you SDA?

 

[shturt678]

Math 101 again. Protestants (of today for sure, ie, including me) = / = Authority of the Word of God Papacy (of today for sure, ie, including you) = / = Authority of the Word of God.

My end point over a cup of Ka'u coffee is ? = Authority of the Word of God.

Just ol' old Jack awaiting for MC to 'point the Way,' or anyone else

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I will appoint for you shepherds.. (Jeremiah 3:15)

Faithless Israel=the church? Interesting...

 

[shturt678]

Faithless Israel=the church? Interesting...

Israel had a little problem, ie, Jer.6:30 - faith-less

Just ol' old faith-more Jack

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faithless Israel=the church? Interesting...

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
(Jeremiah 3:15 KJV)

 

[shturt678]

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
(Jeremiah 3:15 KJV)

Jer.6:30, "....because Jehovah hath rejected them." I wonder who "them" were?

just ol' old accepting Jack

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jer.6:30, "....because Jehovah hath rejected them." I wonder who "them" were?

just ol' old accepting Jack

that's 3 chapters and 15 verses too late look at Jeremiah 3:15

 

[ImaginaryDay]

that's 3 chapters and 15 verses too late look at Jeremiah 3:15

This is still dealing with unfaithful Israel here. And I'm still not sure why Protestant congregations forming a Pastoral search committee falls under the category of 'error' or 'invention'. As I said, it's not some 'show of hands' process where Joe down the street gets the community vote and 'presto-changeo' there he is...

Interesting dialogue nonetheless

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is still dealing with unfaithful Israel here. And I'm still not sure why Protestant congregations forming a Pastoral search committee falls under the category of 'error' or 'invention'. As I said, it's not some 'show of hands' process where Joe down the street gets the community vote and 'presto-changeo' there he is...

Interesting dialogue nonetheless

My experience as chair of a pastoral search committee was that men with 'suitable qualifications' applied for the job, the committee corresponded with them then met with them and if the committee and the candidate were agreeable then they would preach on two consecutive Sundays and the congregation would - after a couple of weeks and with the committee's opinions before them - vote by a show of hands.

Nevertheless, the error is "Representative democracy as church government". It's error/invention number 58.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've added three more errors/inventions.

1. A bible with only 66 books.
2. The list of books constituting the bible is implied by the books themselves.
3. The King James Version of the bible is the only trustworthy bible in English.
4. Jesus spoke in parables most of the time so his words are mostly metaphorical.
5. Sola Scriptura
6. Prima Scriptura
7. Personal interpretation of scripture as normative
8. Faith alone
9. Grace is divine favour and nothing more.
10. Justification is entirely forensic.
11. Sanctification is subsequent to salvation in logical order as well as in the order of time.
12. Arminianism.
13. Total depravity
14. Unconditional election
15. Limited atonement
16. Irresistible grace
17. Perseverance of the saints This error is the fifth point of Calvinism (You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.)
18. Once saved always saved.
19. Double predestination. In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us." -- R. C. Sproul
20. Lapsarianism
    1. Supralapsaranism.
    2. Infralapsarianism/Sublapsarianism.
21. Penal substitutionary atonement. This error refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.[/I]
22. Antinomianism. In Christianity, an antinomian is "one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". ... Antinomianism in modern times is commonly seen as the theological opposite to Legalism or Works righteousness, the notion that obedience to religious law earns salvation. This makes antinomianism an exaggeration of justification by faith alone.[/I] -- Wikipedia
23. Ordinances/Anti-sacramentalism.
24. Infant dedication (not baptism).
25. Baptismal Submersion-ism. Baptism requires the candidate for baptism to be fully submerged under water.
26. Exclusive Credo-baptism-ism. Only people who have reached an age at which they can give a credible profession of faith are legitimate candidates for baptism.
27. Faith alone Regenerates. One is "born again" when one says & believes the sinner's prayer (or a near equivalent).
28. Believer's baptism is primarily a public testimony of one's faith. This error rejects baptism as the washing away of one's sins and as the ordinary means by which God brings about the new birth.
29. Covenant baptism as a sign and symbol of inclusion into the new covenant community. This error rejects baptism as the means by which God gives sanctifying grace.
30. The Lord's supper as sign and symbol of Christ's presence. This error rejects the biblical teaching that in the Holy Eucharist the bread and wine are the Saviour's body and blood.
31. Dispensing with baptism and the Lord's supper altogether. [Some Protestant groups have dropped all sacraments.]
32. Rapture theories:
    1. A pre tribulation rapture.
    2. A mid tribulation rapture.
33. Errors about the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John.
    1. The seven Churches represent seven ages.
    2. The seven Churches prove that denominations existed in the first century AD.
34. A future seven year reign of anti-christ with three and a half years of Israelite temple worship.
35. Dispensationalism This error teaches that scripture must be rightly divided by applying a scheme of dispensations to it; usually seven dispensations are taken as normative but other additional dispensations are sometimes included.
36. The sermon on the mount as "old testament teaching". This error teaches that Christ's teaching in Matthew chapter five through seven is largely not applicable under the new covenant.
37. Prosperity gospel: Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a Christian religious doctrine that financial blessing is the will of God for Christians, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to Christian ministries will always increase one's material wealth.
38. Disease and sickness are from Satan. Christians are never sick or diseased because of God but always because they are oppressed by the devil.
39. Temperance movement. ... Alcohol is wicked, "a devil's brew".
40. Old covenant Dietary laws applied to new covenant Christians: Christians shall have no shellfish, crustaceans, pork, or any 'unclean meat' because they are forbidden in the Law of Moses.
41. The papacy is the antichrist.
42. A specific pope will be the antichrist.
43. Michael the Archangel and Jesus being the same person.
44. Heaven being in the Orion nebula.
45. Soul Sleep: Death is an unconscious, sleep-like state. When Jesus Christ comes again, He will resurrect the dead who believe in Him and will take them to heaven. The dead who are unbelievers will be resurrected 1000 years later.
46. For a period of a thousand years the earth will be utterly desolate and only Satan and his angels will be on earth. At the end of the thousand years the the Holy City in heaven will descend to earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected and with Satan and his angels, they will surround the Holy City to attack God and His people. God will destroy Satan and his followers, hence removing sin forever.
47. Trail of blood Also known as Baptist successionism. It is the theory (unsupported by fact) that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Baptist denomination (Which in fact started around 1605 AD in England).
48. Belief that there is conspiracy involving "The Jesuit oath". This error teaches that there is an oath that among other things is alleged to say "make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons". It is akin to the belief in "The Protocols of the Enders of Zion" as a real Jewish conspiracy to destroy non-Jews.
49. Errors about indulgences:
    1. Indulgences forgive sins. This is more of a common error held by some Protestants because they either do not know what an indulgence is or because they believe anti-catholic propaganda. An indulgence does not cause any sins to be forgiven.
    2. The Catholic Church taught that indulgences were to be sold. This too is a common error held by some but not backed up by the facts of history. The Catholic Church does not and never did teach that one could buy an indulgence. But, alas, some unscrupulous people no doubt did sell them.
50. Sermon centric worship.
    1. The sermon ought to be the focus of church-worship-services.
    2. The pulpit ought to be the focus of a church building's architecture and the table for use in communion ought to be to the side or located in a different part of the church because there is no altar in the church and no sacrifice is made in a church service.
51. The One True Church is not a visible institution.
52. The One True Church is made up of all true believers scattered throughout all denominations.
53. Denominationalism.
54. Rejection of the threefold office in the church. Deacon, Presbyter, and Bishop are the offices identified in sacred scripture and present in the church from the beginning. Some protestant bodies reduce this to Deacon and Elder some to Deacon and Pastor and some teach Deacon, Elder, and Pastor with Pastor distinguished only by being the "teaching elder" in a congregation.
55. Rejection of clergy-laity distinction in the church.
56. Seminary and Bible colleges damage one's faith and ought to be avoided.
57. Pastors and elders need not be graduates of a seminary or an accredited bible college.
58. Equivocating "worship" and "worship service" This error teaches that worship in a small group consisting of two or more is the same as the 'worship service' one would normally experience on a Sunday in a church [building].
59. Being a Christian while eschewing any church affiliation. Is the belief that one need not be associated with any church or group. While this is not a denominational belief it is sufficiently widespread to make a kind of theology of its own.
60. Emerging church movement; Emerging churches are fluid, hard to define, and varied; they contrast themselves with what has gone before by using the term "inherited church." Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgement of political and Post-modern elements. ... -- from Wikipedia
61. Representative Democracy as Church government.
62. Seeker sensitive churches.
63. Accountability partners.
64. Altar calls.
65. Church discipline effectively nullified because of the difficulty of enforcement in a multi-denominational community.

 

[Standing Up]

Here are clarifications and more errors:

1) Eucharist Adoration (the worship of the created bread via the priest, rather than the Creator)
2) Accepting bad theology from children who have visions (devotions to "sacred" hearts)
3) Believing visions as truth that contradict scripture (Fatima)
4) Accepting "regenerative" baptisms of heretical groups as on par with Christian baptism
5) Baptizing babies as salvific (contradicts scripture)
6) Maintaining the clergy/laity split, rather than promoting the biblical priesthood of believers