Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[MoreCoffee]

This in no wise answers the question.

I think it does answer the question. First comes the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, then comes the teaching of the apostles by Jesus Christ, then comes the apostles teaching others. All of this is spoken word and physical action and encompasses both what will later become sacred scripture and what will become Tradition. In fact sacred tradition is the superset within which is found the subset that is sacred scripture.

"It's our book"

"It's just a book"

Those are things I've heard Catholic ministers say in regards to the bible and how it fits with Holy tradition. So again I ask you, what came first as your church teaches it, holy tradition, or scripture?

I don't know what you've heard or the context in which it was said. "Our book" is true enough, it is yours too even though your faith tradition rejects parts of it (the deuterocanon). And it is "just a book"; it isn't God and it isn't a living being. It's paper and ink. It's contents is sacred, but it is still just a book.

 

[tadoflamb]

Those are things I've heard Catholic ministers say in regards to the bible and how it fits with Holy tradition. So again I ask you, what came first as your church teaches it, holy tradition, or scripture?

They come from the same source:

"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."41
USCCB - Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[Rev Randy]

Seems the topic has changed from Protestant to Catholic.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Peter came married. He did not take a wife after becoming an Apostle.

And the others?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seems the topic has changed from Protestant to Catholic.

Yeah, I reckon these Protestant misconceptions are the seed of new entries for the list

 

[Rev Randy]

And the others?

Like who?

 

[tadoflamb]

Christ choose to be celibate. Paul choose to be celibate. Peter was married (wouldn't that disqualify him as Pope?). If a priest choose to be celibate that would be fine. However being told "You can't be married if you wish to be a priest" is another issue altogether.

Again, mandatory celibacy is a discipline and not a doctrine. It hasn't always been a requirement of the Church and can be removed at any time. Any man who has a authentic calling to the priesthood understands the discipline of celibacy and would not protest. To cry that one is being treated unfairly that one can not be a priest and a husband at the same time belies a disobedient heart and rebellious spirit.

 

[Stryder06]

I think it does answer the question. First comes the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, then comes the teaching of the apostles by Jesus Christ, then comes the apostles teaching others. All of this is spoken word and physical action and encompasses both what will later become sacred scripture and what will become Tradition. In fact sacred tradition is the superset within which is found the subset that is sacred scripture.

Tradition or scripture? Why is it hard to say "Tradition came first through which the sacred scripture was created" or "Scripture came first, through which sacred tradition proceeded.

I don't know what you've heard or the context in which it was said. "Our book" is true enough, it is yours too even though your faith tradition rejects parts of it (the deuterocanon). And it is "just a book"; it isn't God and it isn't a living being. It's paper and ink. It's contents is sacred, but it is still just a book.

This I'll leave alone.

 

[Rev Randy]

Christ choose to be celibate. Paul choose to be celibate. Peter was married (wouldn't that disqualify him as Pope?). If a priest choose to be celibate that would be fine. However being told "You can't be married if you wish to be a priest" is another issue altogether.

So you thing Christ had a real choice. So do I. He could take an earthly wife of the Church as his Bride.

 

[tadoflamb]

Seems the topic has changed from Protestant to Catholic.

I'm just waiting for the charge of 'celibacy causes pedophilia', though I'm not sure we can give full credit to the protestants for that one.

 

[Stryder06]

Again, mandatory celibacy is a discipline and not a doctrine. It hasn't always been a requirement of the Church and can be removed at any time. Any man who has a authentic calling to the priesthood understands the discipline of celibacy and would not protest. To cry that one is being treated unfairly that one can not be a priest and a husband at the same time belies a disobedient heart and rebellious spirit.

But who are they being disobedient and rebellious towards? It's not a discipline that God requires. God actually says that it is not good for man to be alone, and if a man feels called to the ministry, but also desires to take wife, you create an unnecessary conflict of interest there by enforcing this "discipline".

 

[Rev Randy]

No. Rev 19:7-9 is the marriage of the Lamb. This is future. Not a just a consummation.

Marriage supper.
In the days Christ walked the earth, there was but one way to end a betrothal. A writ of divorcement.
It's not like today with all the modern earthly ways. Today engagment is used as a period of time in which we can change our mind. Betrothal is not modern engagement. In those days a betrothal was the same as being married but awaiting for the bridegroom to return after making a place for his bride. The Church IS the bride of Christ. Not will be. He is our husband gone to prepare a place for us.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Like who?

1 Cor 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

Is this not teaching that not only did some of the Apostles take a wife, but that Paul and Barnabas would be right in doing so at that point if they wished?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Marriage supper.
In the days Christ walked the earth, there was but one way to end a betrothal. A writ of divorcement.
It's not like today with all the modern earthly ways. Today engagment is used as a period of time in which we can change our mind. Betrothal is not modern engagement. In those days a betrothal was the same as being married but awaiting for the bridegroom to return after making a place for his bride. The Church IS the bride of Christ. Not will be. He is our husband gone to prepare a place for us.

The marriage supper comes after. 19:6-8 describes the actual wedding.

Please show where Scriptures teache that the Church has been married to Christ already.

 

[Rev Randy]

1 Cor 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

Is this not teaching that not only did some of the Apostles take a wife, but that Paul and Barnabas would be right in doing so at that point if they wished?

It's showing that some had a wife. I am sure no one would desire those who were married to get divorced. Could Paul have taken a wife? I suppose but then he would not have been the Paul we read of.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tradition or scripture? Why is it hard to say "Tradition came first through which the sacred scripture was created" or "Scripture came first, through which sacred tradition proceeded.

Odd that my previous answers seem to be eluding you. This is how it works:
God is incarnate in Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ teaches the apostles

• The apostles teach others
• later, the apostles write some of the new testament
• some of those who were taught by the apostles write the rest of the new testament

The elements in the list are sacred tradition.
Sacred scripture is a part of the list.
Therefore sacred scripture is a subset of sacred tradition.

Obviously Christ comes first, his teaching comes after, and after that comes the handed on teaching (tradition) of the apostles, then comes the writing of scripture.

You asked which came first. Obviously the teaching of Christ - which was not written by Christ - is first in chronology. Sacred tradition is what Jesus taught to the apostles. Later, after some preliminary steps, sacred scripture was written.

 

[Rev Randy]

The marriage supper comes after. 19:6-8 describes the actual wedding.

Please show where Scriptures teache that the Church has been married to Christ already.

It shows the celebration of the return of the bridegroom. Just as is shown in a parable of the wise and foolish virgins.

 

[Rev Randy]

Yeah, I reckon these Protestant misconceptions are the seed of new entries for the list

Yep. I can see a couple more coming to light.

 

[tadoflamb]

But who are they being disobedient and rebellious towards? It's not a discipline that God requires. God actually says that it is not good for man to be alone, and if a man feels called to the ministry, but also desires to take wife, you create an unnecessary conflict of interest there by enforcing this "discipline".

Once again, any man with a true calling to the priesthood understands the discipline of celibacy. For Catholics, what is of the Church and what is of God are one and the same. That's how close we are. There is a marriage going on here. I, for one, would love to be a priest, however, since I am married I'm forbidden to do so. So, what do I do? Pout or stomp my foot in protest? No, I understand the discipline of celibacy and I understand the authority of the Church and therefore I am happy and content fulfilling my duties as an official minister of the Sacrament of Marriage.

To decry the celibacy of priests is just an attempt at accommodating the obstinacy of men. Like I said, persons with a true calling to the priesthood don't suffer the same misunderstandings as your typical protestant.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But who are they being disobedient and rebellious towards? It's not a discipline that God requires. God actually says that it is not good for man to be alone, and if a man feels called to the ministry, but also desires to take wife, you create an unnecessary conflict of interest there by enforcing this "discipline".

Actually, it does take a lot of discipline to do what one is called to do. Do you think Michael Jordan didn't give up a lot of things to get where he is? Do you think any pro athlete doesn't spend vast hours in the weight room, conditioning his body, putting only certain foods into it? And they gladly do so because of the rewards they seek. Same thing with priests.