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Protestant errors and inventions (3)

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LittleLambofJesus

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We're going to be hearing from the Book of Wisdom this upcoming Sunday. I think you guys are really missing out. Here's the readings if you want to score along at home:

Twenty-third Sunday in Ordinary Time

It's not just the fact that books have gone missing but the books that remain have been toyed with as well. As evidence I submit Malachi 1:11 which we discussed earlier in this thread. What a Catholic bible calls a 'perfect sacrifice' an unauthorized protestant translation reads 'pure grain offering'.
Aside from the attempt to mitigate the fact that the Catholic mass fulfills Malachi's prophecy, how does this translation relate to protestantism?
I sort of doubt you're offering pure grain offerings east to west, sunrise to sunset.
Not sure what all the hoopla is about, as it would seem it is mainly an OC Jewish thang, imho.

Some versions simply use "pure offering/present".

Online Bible Search for Bible Study - ESV, NKJV, NASB and KJV

(Young) Malachi 1:11
For, from the rising of the sun to its going in, Great [is] My name among nations, And in every place perfume is brought nigh to My name, and a pure present,
For great [is] My name among nations, Said YAHWEH of Hosts.

(KJV) Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering:
for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.


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Isatis

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April 8, 2013. (Romereports.com) On Monday morning, Pope Francis welcomed the president of the Evangelical Church in Germany, Nikolaus Schneider, in his first papal audience with a Protestant leader and his wife.

In a 30 minute meeting, the two leaders spoke about ecumenism. Both spoke about the martyrs as a bond between Christians, as well as the upcoming anniversary of the Reformation in 2017, and the possibility that both Churches will celebrate it together. :scratch:

At the end, the two exchanged greetings as well as gifts. Schneider gave Pope Francis a Bible in German, while the Pope gave him a papal medallion. After the exchange, the Pope enthusiastically thanked Schneider in German.

Other leaders present at the meeting were Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, as well as German Archbishop Gerhard Muller, prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The Evangelical Church in Germany is a federation of 22 Protestant Churches representing a third of that country's population.


Pope Francis meets with first Protestant leader
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by tadoflamb
an unauthorized protestant translation
Can you please explain why you say "unauthorized" protestant translation. Unauthorized by whom?
Perhaps any translation/version not authorized by Roman Catholicism and the Vatican :confused:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7234016-13/
Jerome and banning of translations

http://biblelight.net/banned.htm

............In 1408 the third synod of Oxford, England, banned unauthorized English translations of the Bible and decreed that possession of English translation's had to be approved by diocesan authorities. The Oxford council declared:
"It is dangerous, as St. Jerome declares, to translate the text of Holy Scriptures out of one idiom into another, since it is not easy in translations to preserve exactly the same meaning in all things.
We therefore command and ordain that henceforth no one translate the text of Holy Scripture into English or any other language as a book, booklet, or tract, of this kind lately made in the time of the said John Wyclif or since, or that hereafter may be made, either in part or wholly, either publicly or privately, under pain of excommunication, until such translation shall have been approved and allowed by the Provincial Council.
He who shall act otherwise let him be punished as an abettor of heresy and error."...................



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LittleLambofJesus

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until such translation shall have been approved and allowed by the Provincial Council

Not as unreasonable as many have claimed.
Where can I find that council here in Texas?



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Albion

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Correct. The so-called two groups that each claim to be #1 and unchanged disagree on the books of the apocrapha as divine. So much for that.

So, the 66 books are correct as canon. And the reason why the two (divine vs uninspired) are differentiated has been shown.

Quite right. After all the flak clears we find that every church accepts the 66 books. The Catholics aren't disputing them, and there is no doctrine that depends upon the Apocryphal books, whether you include them in one's copy of the Bible or not.

In fact, two of the largest Protestant churches--Lutheran and Anglican--which do not consider them to be divine revelation (for good cause, as already explained) do nevertheless order them read for instruction. That's what they are--morality tales that, like any novel, may convey serious lessons about life without anyone getting carried away and thinking of them as the "word of God." :)
 
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MoreCoffee

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Can you please explain why you say "unauthorized" protestant translation. Unauthorized by whom?

Not authorised by the Catholic Church's hierarchy. You can tell because it has no form of formal acceptance by the Church.
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops said:
USCCB Approved Translations of the Sacred Scriptures for Private Use and Study by Catholics
1983 - Present

The 1983 Code of Canon Law entrusts to the Apostolic See and the episcopal conferences the authority to approve translations of the Sacred Scriptures in the Latin Catholic Church (c. 825, §1). Prior to 1983, Scriptural translations could be approved by the Apostolic See or by a local ordinary within a diocese.

What follows is a complete list of the translations of the Sacred Scriptures that have received the approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops since 1983.

In addition to the translations listed below, any translation of the Sacred Scriptures that has received proper ecclesiastical approval ‒ namely, by the Apostolic See or a local ordinary prior to 1983, or by the Apostolic See or an episcopal conference following 1983 ‒ may be used by the Catholic faithful for private prayer and study.


Books of the New Testament, Alba House

Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society

The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications

New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)

New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches

The Psalms, Alba House

The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company

The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company

Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)

So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House

Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society

Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society
 
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Rev Randy

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That's right. Reformers were correct in their assessment that the Apocrypha was non-canonical.

By what authority? And by which Reformers. It seems they did not all agree so consensus is not the authority. Is this a pick and choose thing?
 
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Rev Randy

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Which then led to the Council of Trent which decided that the Apocrypha was canonical. The Reformers did not remove any books from the Bible; rather the Council of Trent established the Catholic canon of scripture.
Neither true not even close to accurate. The cannon was established long before Trent. Trent was a reaffirmation.
 
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Isatis

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By what authority?

Sola scriptura. God’s Word. His authority. You know, what's been called a protestant "error".

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)
 
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Thekla

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Josephus will set the stage.

8. For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain Divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them. For it is no new thing for our captives, many of them in number, and frequently in time, to be seen to endure racks and deaths of all kinds upon the theatres, that they may not be obliged to say one word against our laws and the records that contain them; whereas there are none at all among the Greeks who would undergo the least harm on that account, no, nor in case all the writings that are among them were to be destroyed; for they take them to be such discourses as are framed agreeably to the inclinations of those that write them; and they have justly the same opinion of the ancient writers, since they see some of the present generation bold enough to write about such affairs, wherein they were not present, nor had concern enough to inform themselves about them from those that knew them; examples of which may be had in this late war of ours, where some persons have written histories, and published them, without having been in the places concerned, or having been near them when the actions were done; but these men put a few things together by hearsay, and insolently abuse the world, and call these writings by the name of Histories.
Against Apion 1:8

And now 1 Macc 9:27

[27] Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

14:41 [41]
"And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise,

And of course there are Christ's words that also confirm all of this.

IIRC, all of the apocrapha was written after Artixerxes, during the time when the lineage of prophets had ceased. Therefore, all of them are uninspired, unlike God-breathed scripture (aka 66 books).

John the Baptist was a prophet, and more than a prophet, according to Jesus Christ:

[FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif] Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you."
Luke 7
[/FONT]
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Sola scriptura. God’s Word. His authority. You know, what's been called a protestant "error".

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

So by virtue of the authority of scripture in 1885, some nobodies leaning on their own understanding, tore pages out of the bible and called it the true bible . i recall another group rising around then did something similar with their bible .
 
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MoreCoffee

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Neither true not even close to accurate. The cannon was established long before Trent. Trent was a reaffirmation.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The council of Trent reaffirmed the canon of sacred scripture declared in ancient times. The council was well aware that it was reaffirming what was already established as truth by the ancient church. Thus the council of Trent declares that,
Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.

It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.

They are the following:

Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.

Let all understand, therefore, in what order and manner the council, after having laid the foundation of the confession of faith, will proceed, and who are the chief witnesses and supports to whom it will appeal in conforming dogmas and in restoring morals in the Church.​
 
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rockytopva

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You guys are forgetting about we Virginians! Surely the camp meetings of yore were errors and inventions. All that love, shouting, evangelism, circuit riding, spending hours on end around the mourners bench. Just not Catholic I tell ya!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7757196/#post63591822


The Wytheville circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

At the close of that year in casting up my accounts I found that I had received three hundred and ninety dollars for my year's work, and the most of this had been contributed in everything except money. It required about the amount of cash contributed to pay my associate and the Presiding Elder. I got the chickens, the eggs, the butter, the ribs and backbones, the corn, the meat, and the Presiding Elder and Brother Stradley had helped us to eat our part of the quarterage. Well, we kept open house and had a royal time, even if we did not get much ready cash. We lived and had money enough to get a good suit of clothes and to pay our way to conference. What more does a young Methodist preacher need or want? We were satisfied and happy, and these experiences are not to be counted as unimportant assets in the life and work of a Methodist circuit rider.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Sola scriptura. God’s Word. His authority. You know, what's been called a protestant "error".
Sola scripture is one of the errors in the list. It's number Three (#3). It is listed as #3 because it depends on the list of books that define scripture. Error #1 is A bible with only 66 books. because it is the foundation error for most of the errors in doctrine included in the list.

The Catholic Church had a canon of 73 books at the end of the fourth century. That canon is available online in the decrees of the local council of Carthage (397 AD)
Canon 24. (Greek xxvii.)

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture

Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.

But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
  • Genesis.
  • Exodus.
  • Leviticus.
  • Numbers.
  • Deuteronomy.
  • Joshua the Son of Nun.
  • The Judges.
  • Ruth.
  • The Kings, iv. books.
  • The Chronicles, ij. books.
  • Job.
  • The Psalter.
  • The Five books of Solomon.
  • The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
  • Isaiah.
  • Jeremiah.
  • Ezechiel.
  • Daniel.
  • Tobit.
  • Judith.
  • Esther.
  • Ezra, ij. books.
  • Macchabees, ij. books.
    • The New Testament.
      • The Gospels, iv. books.
      • The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.
      • The Epistles of Paul, xiv.
      • The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.
      • The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.
      • The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.
      • The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.
      • The Revelation of John, j. book.
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Yes, all scripture is inspired by God and it is useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright.

Having agreed that scripture is inspired we need to know what books are scripture. That is not something revealed in the text of the bible. It was the Church that decided that matter after prayer and following the example of the Church fathers as well as use in the Church's liturgy. It was from the books that were used in the Liturgy that the selection of inspired scripture was made and the list of accepted books is called the canon (or rule) of scripture.

The ancient church councils documented what they did - see the list above.
 
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Shane R

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The Apocrypha are an interesting study. Most Protestants are utterly illiterate as regards the several books of Apocrypha. Even in churches which accept them for public reading, such as Anglican and Lutheran, they seldom appear outside obscure sections of the liturgy. This is because no one reading and understanding them could hold to the views of the majority of Protestants, specifically concerning predestination among other things.

Truly, some of the best devotional reading is contained in these texts, especially Sirach and Wisdom. Baruch is deceptively rich liturgically. Tobit is a story of faith being lived, and God's providence towards the faithful.
 
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