Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[Root of Jesse]

One doesn't need to be RC to adhere to the creed.

Btw, which "creed" are you talking about?



.

Which denomination are you talking about?

 

[Albion]

But you know as well as I do that those protestant denominations

Ah, so there are "protestant denominations" now! Perhaps we are getting somewhere and will hear no more about a mythical "the Protestant Church" from you?

No, the Protestant Church I refer to is the same Protestant Church protestants refer to

Hmm. No such luck. You just don't seem able to understand this, despite many explanations that have already been given.

You can see the difficulty that arises when you have a Protestant Church that only exists invisibly or doesn't exist at all.

What are you talking about? None of that makes any sense. Or it is that you just want to taunt us with gibberish?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Folks, let me quote St Paul. My paraphrase got lost in translation.

Rom. 5:21, 6:1-2
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

No one who believes in OSAS also teaches go and do whatever you want (sin).

So, while you may disagree with OSAS, do so for some other reason than you're fearful of the straw man of permissiveness. Remember also, love casts out fear.

Chalk up another one P got right.

So, once your saved, you're not always saved?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Of course it does. Tell that to the post Vat II and pre Vat II groups. Or to EO. Or to OO. Or to the very early church. That Rome does not follow what was handed down, anyone may know (Firmilian, 256ad).

You mean the ones who aren't Catholic anymore? For that matter, tell it to the Protestant Revolters...

 

[Hentenza]

You mean the ones who aren't Catholic anymore? For that matter, tell it to the Protestant Revolters...

Not revolters. The Catholic church was corrupted and needed to reform but was unwilling to reform on their own.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But the celebration of the Eucharist is not above and beyond time and space, as MamaZ said. We are not assembled outside time and space. The actions of the priest and, indeed, the Crucifixion are not above and beyond time and space except in terms of consequences or value, etc.

Actually, it is, because this is where the New Jerusalem of Revelation meets the Church. It's the same sacrifice, regardless of how you see it, Albion. The priest takes on Christ, who is God, and exists outside of time and space. If the act of the Crucifixion is not above and beyond time and space, how is it that it takes away our sins, as well as those before?

I understand that you don't understand how. I don't know how either. It just is.

 

[rockytopva]

Spiritual experiences as stated in Wesley’s journal from Jan. 1, 1739: “About sixty of our brethren until three in the morning, the power of God came mightily on us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” John Wesley prayed, “Lord send us revival without its defects but if this is not possible, send revival, defects and all.”

In other words... Yea! We are in error!

 

[bbbbbbb]

You mean the ones who aren't Catholic anymore? For that matter, tell it to the Protestant Revolters...

Nice. Now we have, in your bubble, Protestant Revolters, OO Revolters, EO Revolters - and anyone who is not Catholic Revolters. I think you need to find a label for Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jains, Sikhs, animists, etc., etc. Some of these were Catholics, but most have never had any association with the Catholic Church. If they are not Revolters, what are they?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, it is, because this is where the New Jerusalem of Revelation meets the Church. It's the same sacrifice, regardless of how you see it, Albion. The priest takes on Christ, who is God, and exists outside of time and space. If the act of the Crucifixion is not above and beyond time and space, how is it that it takes away our sins, as well as those before?

I understand that you don't understand how. I don't know how either. It just is.

It just may be in your own mind, but in all the Catholic masses I have attended the priest has remained firmly fixed in the same time and space that I occupy. I never observed him disappearing into some other ether, have you?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not revolters. The Catholic church was corrupted and needed to reform but was unwilling to reform on their own.

That's rewriting history. The Catholic Church was in need of reform, and was in the process of reforming. Not to Luther's liking, so he, and the others revolted.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Nice. Now we have, in your bubble, Protestant Revolters, OO Revolters, EO Revolters - and anyone who is not Catholic Revolters. I think you need to find a label for Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jains, Sikhs, animists, etc., etc. Some of these were Catholics, but most have never had any association with the Catholic Church. If they are not Revolters, what are they?

I don't know why people take offense at the truth. The Americans were revolters, too. They had their reasons, Protestants had theirs and Othodox had theirs. I mean why do we label folks pro-choice when they're really pro-abortion?

As for the rest you mention, they weren't revolters because they didn't revolt against anything. They never were Catholic, as a group.

The problem I have with calling it "Reformation" is that they didn't really reform anything. They just changed definitions, changed rules, and went on. The Orthodox had legitimate gripes, which, when brought to Rome's attention, Rome chose to leave it as they did. The Protestant Reform saw something that wasn't there, pretty much. The Catholic Church was not selling indulgences, had already said that selling indulgences was error, and was in the process of changing what needed to be changed.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It just may be in your own mind, but in all the Catholic masses I have attended the priest has remained firmly fixed in the same time and space that I occupy. I never observed him disappearing into some other ether, have you?

As sure as I'm looking at the priest, when he elevates the host, he is in the person of Christ.

 

[Albion]

The Protestant Reform saw something that wasn't there, pretty much. The Catholic Church was not selling indulgences, had already said that selling indulgences was error, and was in the process of changing what needed to be changed.

Whew. You really do need a refresher course in Western Civilization if you really think that, and are not just saying it to "get under our skin."

 

[Thekla]

But the celebration of the Eucharist is not above and beyond time and space, as MamaZ said. We are not assembled outside time and space. The actions of the priest and, indeed, the Crucifixion are not above and beyond time and space except in terms of consequences or value, etc.

I don't think any of that conflicts with what I wrote.

God is beyond time and space; in Him (and Him in us) we are indeed beyond time and space, including the actions of the Eucharist. If we are not, we do not participate in Him nor He in us. If we do participate in Him, we cannot not be beyond time and space.

In anamnesis (as Christ commanded) we are present/re-present despite the interceding of time (chronos) and space.

 

[Albion]

God is beyond time and space

That's so, but the rest of this--Mass, consecration, sacrifice, priest--is not.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Whew. You really do need a refresher course in Western Civilization if you really think that, and are not just saying it to "get under our skin."

I don't say things I don't know to be true, and I don't say things to get under anyone's skin. Every Ecumenical Council was concerned with Church Reform. Lateran V, Florence, and so on. And there were more reformers working in the Catholic Church before Luther or Zwingli left. It may not have been happening locally for them, but the Catholic Church is always in a state of Reform, because the Catholic Church is not a countryclub of perfect people.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't say things I don't know to be true, and I don't say things to get under anyone's skin. Every Ecumenical Council was concerned with Church Reform. Lateran V, Florence, and so on. And there were more reformers working in the Catholic Church before Luther or Zwingli left. It may not have been happening locally for them, but the Catholic Church is always in a state of Reform, because the Catholic Church is not a countryclub of perfect people.

No, not a country club, at all. Vatican City is a city, not in the country. It contains a city club of cardinals.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, not a country club, at all. Vatican City is a city, not in the country. It contains a city club of cardinals.

Ah, an attempt at humor.

 

[Standing Up]

That's so, but the rest of this--Mass, consecration, sacrifice, priest--is not.

They've missed the part where Christ is sitting now at the right hand of God. He's not standing with the priest sacrificing again.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, an attempt at humor.

Yes, an attempt, weak as it was.