Proselytize me

[awitch]

Greetings...I'm new here and I would like to throw in a quick disclaimer that this is not spam, I'm not selling anything, this isn't a trick, I'm not publishing anything, and this is not a malicious post.

I am a neo-Pagan, and I am sincerely looking to engage in a proselytizing/evangelizing conversation. If you would like to practice or receive constructive criticism about techniques used to convert me, I am happy to reply (either on the public board here, or through private email). Of course, any discussion would be respectfully carried out.

The reason I am doing this is strictly and sincerely curiosity.
Thanks

Andy (A-Witch)

 

[vespasia]

*Please ensure you read and understand the forum rules*

 

[awitch]

Thank you...I have reviewed the rules and I hope this thread is not considered "baiting". I am not here to promote my personal beliefs. I am just seeking sincere dialog.

Andy

 

[Chaplain David]

Greetings...I'm new here and I would like to throw in a quick disclaimer that this is not spam, I'm not selling anything, this isn't a trick, I'm not publishing anything, and this is not a malicious post.

I am a neo-Pagan, and I am sincerely looking to engage in a proselytizing/evangelizing conversation. If you would like to practice or receive constructive criticism about techniques used to convert me, I am happy to reply (either on the public board here, or through private email). Of course, any discussion would be respectfully carried out.

The reason I am doing this is strictly and sincerely curiosity.
Thanks

Andy (A-Witch)

Now what is it again you want to do with this thread? Are you saying you that you are finding a belief in God and want people to help you with that?

 

[awitch]

Not exactly...I'm curious about proselytizing techniques. I would like to learn more about Christianity, both the religion and culture of different Christians and I feel the best way to do that is by talking with them. I do admit that I am not really interested in converting (at least at this time).

The offer to critique methods stems from the amount of times I hear about people complaining.

 

[vespasia]

I suggest getting to know some of the posters on this forum and simply chatting with them.

You may find it helpful to contact some of the neo-pagan (insert path) mods in the forums at the bottom of this page.

You may find it more helpful to ask these questions in outreach (again at the bottom of the forum)

If you curious about differant denominations you can read the various denominational forums (please pay attention to the forum specific rules in that section) and there is always the theology section to read too.


Witnessing simply means telling people about Christ.

It is their choice to choose Christ or not.

It is not people who 'convert' you, it is you who make the choice to convert.

 

[awitch]

Thank you for the advice - I will take you up on it.

 

[rita727]

Thank you for the advice - I will take you up on it.

Out of curiosity, why are curious about different witnessing techniques if you're not interested in being Christian (or at least at this time)?

 

[awitch]

Part of the reason is that I've heard a lot of stories of witnessing from around the country - some reported the encounters were friendly, others very hostile. In the areas of my home state, soliciting is illegal, so it's not something I can experience (and I have a high interest in different kinds of religious based experiences).

I feel that witnessing would present the best characteristics of the faith to someone who does not currently subscribe. Based on what was presented, I would have a better idea of questions I wanted to ask to learn more - not necessarily to convert, but just to have an understanding of what it's all about. So, it's a learning experience for me, and perhaps the person witnessing would learn about what was effective and what wasn't.

 

[Epsilon5]

If you want to see a witnessing method, I suggest you go to needGod.com. It presents it more quickly and easily than I could on a forum.

 

[Ticket2Heaven]

Hi Andy,

I’m new here also. You appear to have a sincere interest to learn about Christian witnessing (proselytizing as you call it). Hopefully that interest extends to learning the Truth of God’s Word regarding your salvation (eternal life).

The primary objective of Christian witnessing is to present Jesus Christ’s promise of eternal life (John 6:47) to unbelievers. At some point in one’s life, one may become what I call God conscious. In other words, a person doesn’t necessarily believe there is a God yet, but believes there must be a supreme being and that person would like to seek Him out to see if God really exists. I think it is reasonable for you to assume, that in your mind, if there is a God and He has a plan for your life, an all-powerful, omnipotent, perfect God would certainly have a plan in place to provide a way for you to learn more about Him.

However, merely believing in God the Father is not enough and not the issue in Christianity. Satan and his demons believe in God, anyone can believe in God. Of course, it stands to reason that before you put all your trust in someone who claims He has the power to give you eternal life, you would want to be sure about Him. Therefore, the Gospel of John in the new testament of the Bible was written for and directed to the unbeliever, all other books of the Bible are written to believer’s, John’s Gospel alone is more than sufficient to equip you with the knowledge you need to know about Jesus Christ in order to believe in Him for salvation. I encourage you to read the entire Gospel of John, as you do so, you will read the words of Jesus Christ, who was crucified and resurrected to pay for the sins of the world so all mankind would have an opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal life.

We don’t call it proselytizing; because no Christian can ever get you to believe or convert you to Christianity, only God the Holy Spirit can convince you, that what you’ve heard and/or read about God the Father’s only uniquely born Son is the truth. God, in His justice, will lead a person, when he/she reaches God consciousness, to someone that will be able & willing to communicate the truth about how to receive God’s free gift of eternal life. It will then be your responsibility, by faith alone, to trust in Christ alone for eternal life (eternal relationship with God).

Furthermore, once you’ve believed in Him, there is nothing you could ever do, say or think to lose your gift of eternal life (John 10:28-30). It is also your right to reject Him (choosing to be eternally separated from God) and move on; of course you could always change your mind down the road and believe but it must happen prior to physical death. From the age of accountability to a person’s last dying breath is the time allotment that God gives every human being to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life. This does not mean that you believe that His first name is Jesus and His last name is Christ; you must believe (trust) in Him for eternal life, it really is that simple. However, God will not interfere with your volition; it is entirely your choice, if you do not make a cognitive choice in your allotted time, by default, you will be eternally separated from God (forever is a long time) at physical death. According to God’s Word, when we enter into the afterlife, it will be too late to make a choice about what we believe (Luke 16:23-31), the choice to believe God’s promise of eternal life must be made before physical death, the rich man mentioned in the Luke verses became keenly aware of this but he could do nothing about it.


Therefore, it is the responsibility of every Christian to present the gospel (good news) when the opportunity presents itself (like I am doing with you). Furthermore, it must be communicated according to God’s Word. In other words, the individual Christian presenting the gospel is charged with the responsibility to provide the person on the receiving end with accurate information about the Saving Work of Jesus Christ, no more and no less; this is the point where many Christians fail. If you do not have accurate information regarding the free gift of eternal life, you will not be able to make a correct and objective decision regarding your eternal future. If you are seeking to know about Christ and his promise of eternal life, God the Holy Spirit will make it clear to you when you are given accurate gospel information; then it is real simple, either you believe it or reject it.

I’m not opposed to a discussion with you so long as it stays pointed towards understanding God’s Word regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind also, I may not be able to answer all your questions nor will I try if the discussion ventures into something other than presenting Christ to you as the sole means of receiving eternal life. Also, sometimes a few days can pass before I’d be able to reply to your questions.

To begin, I would like you to read the following gospel tract titled "Ticket to Heaven"; this will set the stage for a discussion. Also, if you have not already read it, please read my article titled: "God’s Gift of Eternal Life (God gives the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Jesus Christ for it. True or False)," it is just a few posts down from yours."

I’m curious, since you have chosen to call yourself "A-witch", are you practicing witchcraft or was the name "A-witch" just an attention grabber?

I think I’ve given you enough to chew on for now. I’m looking forward to hearing from you.

Ticket2Heaven

 

[PostTribber]

Greetings...I'm new here and I would like to throw in a quick disclaimer that this is not spam, I'm not selling anything, this isn't a trick, I'm not publishing anything, and this is not a malicious post. I am a neo-Pagan, and I am sincerely looking to engage in a proselytizing/evangelizing conversation. If you would like to practice or receive constructive criticism about techniques used to convert me, I am happy to reply (either on the public board here, or through private email). Of course, any discussion would be respectfully carried out. The reason I am doing this is strictly and sincerely curiosity. Thanks, Andy (A-Witch)

"So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." (John 6:44)

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; [1] and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8)

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31)

God has ordained that all whom He predestined according to His sovereign will be saved according to His Gospel. the rest will be judged according to His righteous judgment. it's His kingdom, He laid the foundation, and He adds to it daily. not according to some clever technique, but "by My Spirit, sayeth the Lord!" hope to see you in Heaven.

 

[awitch]

If you want to see a witnessing method, I suggest you go to needGod.com. It presents it more quickly and easily than I could on a forum.

Thanks Epsilon5, I did check out the website you mentioned.

I think I have seen that technique before, and in my opinion it isn't very convincing for non Christians who practice other religions. I notice a few logical errors there, but this probably isn't the appropriate place to get into that.

 

[awitch]

Hi Andy,

At some point in one’s life, one may become what I call God conscious. In other words, a person doesn’t necessarily believe there is a God yet, but believes there must be a supreme being and that person would like to seek Him out to see if God really exists. I think it is reasonable for you to assume, that in your mind, if there is a God and He has a plan for your life, an all-powerful, omnipotent, perfect God would certainly have a plan in place to provide a way for you to learn more about Him.

I respectfully disagree in that while this is probably not an uncommon scenario, there are many alternate possibilities to "choose" from (pantheism, polytheism, panentheism, animism, etc). For example, you may have heard responses to the big bang theory that say "where did the original matter come from?" Many people would say "God", but making the jump from that to the details described in the Bible is too far of a leap for me. Very generally, I have a hard time with omniscience or omnipotence because it would require that free-will is just a guise. It also requires that such a deity controls evil. These are very hard obstacles to overcome for the non Christian.

We don’t call it proselytizing

My apologies, I wasn't aware of the difference between proselytizing, witnesses, and evangelizing.

[quoteTo begin, I would like you to read the following gospel tract; this will set the stage for a discussion. Also, if you have not already read it, please read my article titled: "God’s Gift of Eternal Life (God gives the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Jesus Christ for it. True or False)," it is just a few posts down from yours."[/quote]

I've read "Ticket" and this approach is confusing because it starts with the assumption (for the non Christian) that the Christian view is a truth (I'm can't argue that it isn't, but as a non Christian I need to start with a clean slate).

I’m curious, since you have chosen to call yourself "A-witch", are you practicing witchcraft or was the name "A-witch" just an attention grabber?

It's an older "generic" name I picked out to use on various religious based message boards. I did not intend it to be disruptive, but yes, I am a practicing (and 99.9% of the time Christian-friendly) neoPagan.

I appreciate the time you took to respond...I will read up on the sections you provided.

 

[Ticket2Heaven]

Hi Andy,

Andy said: I respectfully disagree in that while this is probably not an uncommon scenario, there are many alternate possibilities to "choose" from (pantheism, polytheism, panentheism, animism, etc).​

You present some good comments, especially regarding God-consciousness. Looking back, I did not do a very good job of explaining it. I’m going to give you a quote from a book titled "Witnessing" by Robert B. Thieme, Jr., it’s a far better definition – you can order the book at no charge from the author’s website:

"GOD-CONSCIOUSNESS: (Recognition of the existence of a Supreme Being). Sooner or later, all normal members of the human race will be either positive or negative towards God. This is the point of God-consciousness. Should anyone seek the truth and desire a relationship with God, He has promised to provide further information and opportunity to hear (read) the Gospel (John 7:17). When a person is negative at God-consciousness, then God need not provide further information. But anytime during the life of a person should he or she desire the truth, that person will be exposed to the Gospel message.​

A member of the human race who dies before reaching God-consciousness, or the age of accountability, is saved by God’s grace."​

In other words, if a person hasn’t reached God-consciousness or the age of accountability, that person will be given eternal life by default and go to heaven immediately after physical death (this is the Justice of God).

I agree regarding the alternatives to an eternal relationship with God. Many who express negative volition at God-consciousness, consider and then practice various forms of religion and/or neopaganism (I’m not well versed on the terms of your faith but I’m thinking in terms as you’ve described them in your reply). The Bible refers to it as "heathen", meaning, anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Andy said: Very generally, I have a hard time with omniscience or omnipotence because it would require that free-will is just a guise. It also requires that such a deity controls evil. These are very hard obstacles to overcome for the non Christian.​

A lot of people have difficulty understanding omniscience and omnipotence, as these are just a couple of the attributes of God. These attributes have nothing to do with the free-will of mankind other than the creator gave it to us; anyone can choose for or against God, He never will interfere in the volition of man. God does not control evil, the following few paragraphs will hopefully shed some light on this subject.

The Bible tells us that God created Angels long before mankind came on the scene. When He created Angels, God gave them all volition. I’ll try to expand on this a little (I’ll try to keep it brief). God certainly would not create beings and not give them free-will. If He hadn’t given them free will, the beings would be nothing more than robot like creatures. However, when God gave Angels free-will, He knew from His omniscience that it would be possible that His creation could turn against Him. This is exactly what happened.

Lucifer, known now as Satan, was the most beautiful and intelligent being ever created by God. Unlike mankind, God created the entire Angelic realm at the same time. We don’t know how much time, that is time as we know it, passed, but Lucifer decided at some point that he wanted to be like the Most High (in other words, Lucifer wanted to take over heaven). This of course caused an angelic conflict that rages on even to this day.

The author I mentioned earlier, Robert B. Thieme, Jr. summarizes this angelic conflict in his book titled: "Victorious Proclamation."

"The entire angelic creation had previously made their choice, as revealed by the two opposing categories of these super creatures, elect and fallen (Mark 5:1-19; 8:38; 1 Tim. 5:21). When Satan exercised his volition and decided against God (Isa. 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:15), one third of the angels chose to follow him (Rev. 12:4). For an unknown period before the advent of man, the conflict raged between those angels who followed Satan and those who chose God. ​

Since Satan and his angels have been sentenced but not yet cast into the lake of fire (Matt 25:41), two conclusions can be drawn. First, Satan must have appealed his sentence. In fact, the titles ascribed to the super angel after his fall lead to this conclusion "Satan" and (diabnolos)—"the Devil" mean "adversary, accuser, attorney", one who goes to court and appeals (Zech. 3:1-2). Satan objected that God’s sentence was unfair: "How can a loving God cast His creatures into the lake of fire?" He impugned the character of God.​

The second conclusion is that man was created by God as an answer to Satan’s appeal. Created lower than the angels (Ps 8:3-5; cf., Heb. 2:7), mankind would be the extension and resolution of the heavenly conflict. Like the angels, humanity was endowed with free will, and that free will would be tested under the close scrutiny of both the elect and fallen angels (Job 2:1—3; Luke 15:7, 10; 1 Cor. 4:9). Human history would demonstrate to Satan and his fallen minions that all of God’s decisions are perfectly just and right, consistent with all the attributes of His essence."​

Andy said: I've read "Ticket" and this approach is confusing because it starts with the assumption (for the non Christian) that the Christian view is a truth (I'm can't argue that it isn't, but as a non Christian I need to start with a clean slate).​

Thank you for pointing out that this was confusing to you. When I wrote this tract, I was directing it to the approximate 86% of Americans who associate themselves with Christianity. Although 86% when polled associate themselves with Christianity when asked about their religious beliefs, many are not true Christians. The paragraph in Ticket to Heaven where I state possible answers to God when he asks (hypothetical question): "Why Should I Let You into My Heaven?" All the hypothetical answers I listed represent what a lot of people actually think will get them into heaven or are relying on those exact beliefs to get there. So, the tract was not written to someone like yourself who may not know much about Christianity.





One final note, the Gospel of John is a testimony written by John the Apostle (inspired by God). In it he recorded eight miracles he actually witnessed himself that Jesus did.

1. Turning water into wine (John 2:1–12);​

2. Healing the nobleman’s son (4:46–54);​

3. Healing a lame man (5:1–15);​

4. Feeding the 5000 (6:1–14);​

5. Walking on the water (6:15–21);​

6. Healing the man born blind (9:1–12);​

7. Raising Lazarus (11:38–44);​

8. Jesus’ cross/resurrection (19–20; cf. 2:18–19).​

John 20:30-31 is the purpose statement of the Gospel of John which reads as follows:

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.​

Of the three systems of human perception (Rationalism, Empiricism and Faith), Faith is the only means by which man can be saved (receive eternal life).

John 6:47: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." NKJV​

The following link is a gospel message describing how one can receive eternal life: Ticket to Heaven, it was written for anyone not absolutely certain about their eternal future.

 

[hiumble1]

Ok....
so we have been swimming here awhile...
Some questions for A-Witch:
What do you believe (for purposes of time/typing can always keep short and sweet)
Do you believe in God, A God, etc...?
What is God to you...?
[again just freindly banter at this point; might take awhile; considering we are not inperson and over computer]

 

[awitch]

Some questions for A-Witch:
What do you believe (for purposes of time/typing can always keep short and sweet)
Do you believe in God, A God, etc...?
What is God to you...?
[again just freindly banter at this point; might take awhile; considering we are not inperson and over computer]

These are just my personal beliefs...

I am a neopagan witch (not Wiccan) and I believe in a mix of pantheism and polytheism - that the divine is inherent in nature, but can be different personalities when needed or when convenient. They are the manifestation of nature and emotion. They are not all -powerful and are actually mostly indifferent. They are the creatrix (plural creator), but do not use design. That's the generalities.

 

[HappyChicken]

I would like to try to help here...because you seem to be really sincere. -Even though you say you are not interested in conversion at this time. I dabbled in paganism for a long time. Alot of it seemed to make sense to me...at the time. However, it just did not completely settle right. Do you ever feel like that? I also had alot of questions regarding the Bible....I became obsessed with trying to understand everything, and I struggled really hard on the Trinity Doctrine....one doctrine that I still struggle to wrap my brain around. In my opinion, some things are just not meant to be fully understood. There are aspects of God that we just cannot comprehend in earthly fashions.

I also majored in Anthropology in college, and I had to take some physical anthropology courses...which included LOTS AND LOTS of attention on evolution. In my opinion, evolution and the Big Bang Theory are wayyyyyyyyyyyy more far out than the Biblical account of creation. I just cannot subscribe into theories that claim this universe (and all its complexities) to be a mere matter of coincidence. I can go into more detail on this if you need me to. I would actually love to discuss this area in particular, but I don't want to be invasive.

Most pagans I know are wonderful people who have a great desire to be "tuned-in" to a higher calling. Even the ones that practice magick are normally working to better circumstances for others. When you finally give in to the Holy Spirit and convert, you will really find out what "tuning-in" is. -And it's a beautiful thing. I hope I have helped. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate.

 

[HappyChicken]

I would like to try to help here...because you seem to be really sincere. -Even though you say you are not interested in conversion at this time. I dabbled in paganism for a long time. Alot of it seemed to make sense to me...at the time. However, it just did not completely settle right. Do you ever feel like that? I also had alot of questions regarding the Bible....I became obsessed with trying to understand everything, and I struggled really hard on the Trinity Doctrine....one doctrine that I still struggle to wrap my brain around. In my opinion, some things are just not meant to be fully understood. There are aspects of God that we just cannot comprehend in earthly fashions.

I also majored in Anthropology in college, and I had to take some physical anthropology courses...which included LOTS AND LOTS of attention on evolution. In my opinion, evolution and the Big Bang Theory are wayyyyyyyyyyyy more far out than the Biblical account of creation. I just cannot subscribe into theories that claim this universe (and all its complexities) to be a mere matter of coincidence. I can go into more detail on this if you need me to. I would actually love to discuss this area in particular, but I don't want to be invasive.

Most pagans I know are wonderful people who have a great desire to be "tuned-in" to a higher calling. Even the ones that practice magick are normally working to better circumstances for others. When you finally give in to the Holy Spirit and convert, you will really find out what "tuning-in" is. -And it's a beautiful thing. I hope I have helped. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate.

 

[AnneSally]

Not exactly...I'm curious about proselytizing techniques.

Why?