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Propserity Gospel, Freemasonry, and Denials of Christian Teaching

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Fr. Rob, Aug 6, 2002.

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  1. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Oh, the answer I have received is that if you don't have it, it is because you don't believe it.

    That is exactly why. It is the same reason people are not saved. If one believes, they are saved. If they do not, they are not.  It is not a slam, a put down, or any other derogatory effort. It is just a spiritual rule that is repeated over and over again by Jesus and others in the NT. I admit that I have not received things I have asked for this simple reason. It does not make me any less a Christian or bad in any way. Who cannot stand to grow spiritually, in grace, in love, and in faith? I trust we all can.
     
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    It is very easy to see that prosperity and healing are part of the Gospel plan. It is not becos someone says so but becos its plainly in the Bible:

    Deu 28:
    2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

    prosperity

    3* Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
    4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
    5* Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
    6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

    protection

    7* The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

    prosperity

    8* The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
    11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
    12* The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
    13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

    This is Old Covenant. Now consider that we are now in a better convenant with even better promises. And that all the promises are Yes and Amen IN Christ, becos Christ fulfilled all the requirements needed to get these blessings. All we have to do is believe and reach out for it -- simple faith.

    Why healing is part of redemption.

    61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

    We have been redeemed from this curse Ga 3:13. IOW we have been redeemed from "every sickness". again, can one believe it and act on it?

    Why prosperity is part of redemption.

    17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
    18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
    19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

    again we have been redeemed from all these curses thru Christ -- Ga 3:13. ie we have been redeemed from poverty and lack. and again, can we believe this and claim it?

    Now you might ask: Is it right to claim all this? It is not only right but we are honouring the work of Christ when we believe and claim the promises. I mean if Christ paid such a high price to get us redeemed from all this, do we just ignore it and say no thanks? Imagine how you would feel if you went thru a whole lot of trouble to get your wife a precious gift only to have her turn around and say no thanks, I dont need it!
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I agree. The default font size has been cut in half. The font height used to be the same as the smile icon height. :)

    :) See what I mean?
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    The basic question is (I believe): are freemasons the reason prosperity gospel is wrong? the answer is no.
    The other part of the question is (I believe) Does denying basic Christian beliefs makes the prosperity gospel wrong? The answer again is no.

    Now I have a question about the doctrine, if you don't mind. Who can say to God that they have not been blessed? I believe that prosperity in God's economy has little to do with our present economy.

    I have friends that do not believe that. They are good and faithful Christian workers. They hold a totally different view of faith than I do. We pray together, play music together, it's just not much a big deal actually. I also know people that have held both views at different times. The only thing that could separate us as friends is for one of us to force the issue. It's just not worth it.

    Blessings
     
  5. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Hey everyone, :wave: 

    I agree pretty much with Hobie on this one.  There is way too much gossip in the body of Christ.  All done under the guise of caring.  We run too swiftly to spread evil, whether true or not. We heard people say things and have not given them the benefit of the doubt.  We have not treated them the same way we would want to be treated if untruths were told about us. And, with some of us, it's being demonstrated for us by our Pastors who tell us their infoming us so we can BEWARE!

    Oh please.  Teach your people how to hear God's voice for themselves and apply it to themselves so they don't become gossipers and slanderers too.

    It's OK to ask questions, but I did not see that as a question either.  It was a statement trying hard to be disguised as a question.

     
     
  6. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Ok Louis.

    I apologize to all if the thread was in any way disrupted. My Bad.

    Bad methods on my part. :sorry:

    Peace to Fr bob, Gerry, and defenderofpeter!

     

     
     
  7. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  8. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    The problem as I see it - if any one denies the incarnation of Christ they are a deceiver.

    True. If anyone in the faith movement does this I do not know it. I have never heard anyone say this or imply it. So I guess they pass this test.



    If the proponents of "prosparity" fall into this trap then we should be on the alert.

    Agreed. As stated above I am glad that they do not. Pheu!


     

    There are some that believe that because Christ and the twelve were poor - that they were all failures, because if they were doing the will of the Father they would have been blessed beyond belief. 

    Boy, I do not know anyone who does this. Big mistake. I have never heard anyone say or imply that Jesus or the apostles were/are failures. They would be wrong if they did.

     

     The first thing that comes to mind is "hog wash"

    Agreed! Big time hog wash.  

    The problem with many who support the prosparity gospel is that they fail to follow Christ's command to go and sell all that they have, give it to the poor, and go and follow him

    In my lifetime of 50 years, I have never met a single individual(propsperity gospel or no) who has done this. So I hope this is not something that pegs us all as problem children.

    - "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"

    Amen. The eye of the needle is proported to be a narrow, low entrance through the wall of the city. In order for the camels to get through they had to unload all their cargo. I suppose this is the message. I assume if you are presenting this then you know someone who has done it? Wonderful devotion.


    If one denies the incarnation and focus solo-manhood of Chirst then they can easily pick and choose which passages of scripture they will follow.

    I am not sure who you are talking about. I have read every book by Hagin and Kenyon(the so-called fathers of the faith movement), and your statement certainly does not apply to them.

     

     
     
  9. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  10. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    How can anyone stand with these men and call themselves Christian?

    I think it is only fair to go and look at the context in which these things are said. Little snippets of sermons and tapes really do not represent the full message. I am going to the Copeland web site right now and find their statement of faith and see what they believe about Jesus.

    Here it is:

    We believe in one God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things.

    That does not sound like the conclusion you presented in your post. I am not going to spend a lot of time defending other people as they can defend themselves well enough if we make the effort to go (as I just did) and find out what they say.

    Here is the rest of it I found on their website:

    We believe in one God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things.
    We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father and is true God and true man.
    We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the inspired Word of God and the infallible rule of faith and conduct.
    We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal happiness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.
    We believe in personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
    We believe in sanctification through the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit, and we believe in personal holiness, purity of heart and life.
    We believe in divine healing, through faith in the Name of Jesus Christ, and that healing is included in the Redemption.
    We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.
    We believe in the Christian's hope-the soon-coming, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.


    This sounds very much like the statement of faith for your corner church.

    But the proof is in the pudding. I have known multitudes of faith movement people down through they years and I have yet to meet any who believe or teach the conclusions that you present. If faith teachers taught this, then they are not doing a very good job because these messages you present are not getting across to anyone. The only ones who are seeing these things are the ones who are against the faith for healing and faith for prosperity messages. They cannot find any real fault with it so it seems they have to make something up. They seem to press the issues to extreams that are not really taught by anyone just so they can detract from the real message that is being presented.

    As we have pointed out before. If we have disagreements about prosperity or healing, lets discuss this issues on their own merit and not try to drag someone who is not here into the discussion.
     
  11. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    OK Polycarp,

    How about we take your books and pull out part of a sentence out of the middle of a paragraph out of the middle of the book and post it on the web site and claim that that your teaching about God.  We could do the same with your tapes.  Do you think the readers and listeners would get the FULL point that you were making.  Hearing a snippet and then angrily turning off the TV or radio is not hearing.

    And, Jesus, was not poor in money.  Why would He have needed a treasurer (Judas)?  Who, regularly stole from it.  How do you think they all lived?  Do you think they all begged on a corner with a sign that said "will perform miricles for food"?  How about when Jesus told the disciples to go into town and buy enough food to feed 5000 (Luke 9:13).  They did not balk about going to town and buying it.  Enough money for 5000 people?  No, they were not poor. 
     
  12. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  13. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    That is true, because Jesus had other plans.  They did not go, but they could have.  :)

    And, unless it's from the Bible, no need to quote me what the early church wrote.  What's written in the Bible is what I believe.  The disciples and Jesus were not poor.  They did choose to not live extravegent lifestyles. 

    Paul wrote, that he was comfortable either way.  He'd experienced it both ways.  It is not a blessing to be continuously in need and or sick.  Most of the prosperity teachers I have listened to routinely give money and things away.  And, they routinely, have money and things given to them.  They keep giving it away and God keeps resupplying it so they can continue to give it away. And, they do.  But you don't know anything about that, do you?

    I have experienced this law of giving and receiving in my own life too.  According to the world's standards I am not rich, but I never go in want.  Whenever I do get sick, which is extremely rare, I get over it much quicker than the unbelievers (saved/unsaved) around me. 

    If you have not read it on another thread I'll share one that is particularly endearing to me.  Several years ago, in the apartment complex I lived in, I was surrounded by several unoccupied apts.  I prayed and asked God to send me neighbors that would recieve the seed of the Gospel that I plant. 

    Within a few weeks several new neighbors moved in.  The one's directly below me, I started talking to one day and noticed the Russian accent (I've been to Russia twice on mission trips).  I asked them where they were from, and my ear heard correctly, they were from Russia and the surrounding areas.

    Within a few weeks, one day getting ready for work I heard what sounded like a lot of people outside the apt.  I looked out the window to see about 20 people waiting outside. . . all Russian of course :)

    I said, God, you've brought them to my door.  During a couple years time I began to teach several of them English, using a Bible based English learning book. 

    One night I was watching TBN, which I normally do not watch, and they were interviewing a Russian general who is a christian who gives Bibles to his men.

    I rushed downstairs to have my friends watch the show since they would understand what was being said.  They sat glued to the TV.  Afterwords, one of them asked me how she could get a Bible.

    I said, Lord, I need Russian Bibles.  The next day, I mailed off for approx 3 (that's all I could afford at the time).  My pastor found out about it and took up an offering so I could purchase more.  When I received the 1st package, I gave them out.  The next day, I had people I had never met come up to me and ask for Bibles.  In that shipment I orderd not only Russian, but Ukrain, Polish, Ugoslavian, etc.  The Lord had litterally brought the nations to my door step.  I still cry, even as I write this at the creativity of our God.

    It has been at least 6 years and I am still receiving and giving Russian, etc Bibles away.  I've had total strangers walk up to me with bags in their hands asking me if I know anyone who needs Russsian Bibles, and they hand me the bag.   

    Such a small thing, but the more I keep giving them out the more God keeps supplying them.  What can I say?  God is awesome.  He cares about us.  Body, soul, and spirt.  He came to make us whole.  He came so that we could be like Him.

    You're right.  He did not come to make us horders, but givers.  We can't give unless we have.

    Excess is for giving away to others who need it.  Jesus said, give to the poor.  But how can we do that if we are the poor?  How can we give when we're in debt to every credit card company around?   Jesus said, lay hands and heal.  But how can we do that if we don't believe that God heals?  How are we supposed to obey God in these areas according to your theology?
     
  14. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  15. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Polycarp,

    I added on to my last post. 

    You are correct in saying we need to give out of our need as well.  And, I have done this too, as many of the prosperity teachers I've listened to. 

    Luke 9:13 KJV "But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat.  And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all these people."

    According to what I see, they were offering to do so if that's what Jesus wanted.  But of course, that was not what Jesus wanted.  He did want to meet the physical needs of the people though, and He did it via a miracle.  It was not a spiritual need but a physical one. 

    Also, in verse 17 it is written "And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskests. I'd call that excess.

    It does not say who He gave it to but I'm sure there was someone or someone(s) who took it home with them.  Perhaps even they munched on it for a day or so.  It does not say, but there was defineately extra.

    I'm sure I do not fully understand everything.  I believe we all can say that.  When we see Him face to face we all will be in a posture of bowing before Jesus and proclaiming Him as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. :bow:  And I'm sure all of us will have something about out theology burnt up.  Like everyone else, I'm trusting that there is more wheat than chaff
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Just like I posted in another thread the book of Ecclesiastes is a great way to refute what the prosperity movement stands for. :) Check out chapter 7 :)
     
  17. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  18. Polycarp

    Polycarp Member

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  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Dear LORD, I pray that all those here who do not want prosperity blessings and are against the truth that you want to prosper us and bless us exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ever ask or think, LORD that you will channel those blessings to me or Quaffie if they dont want it, that we may inturn bless others with our abundance. Thank you Lord, in Jesus name. AMEN!
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    quote: "The problem as I see it - if any one denies the incarnation of ChristÊthey are a deceiver. If the proponents ofÊ"prosparity" fall into this trap then we should be on the alert."

    EXACTLY! The question is, are people like K Copeland, Hinn, K Hagin deniers of Christ? Can ppl pls at least establish that first before they go and criticise them as false prophets (deniers of Christ)! For God's sake, read their testimonies, see the works that are being done by their ministries, eg missionary work, building churches, feeding the poor etc in the name of Jesus.
     
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