Propitiation

[fhansen]

As we all know, the responses to my questions vary significantly throughout the history of Christianity. For example, the monergism of Augustine is really quite unlike the synergism of contemporary forms of Christianity.

I think James addressed your first question very nicely in his epistle. Jesus Himself answered your second question when He clearly stated that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you could elaborate on James' position there. And even if all sin is forgivable, that doesn't mean that we're to continue in it, in the deeds of the flesh that Scripture tells us will exclude us from the presence of God.

And read enough Augustine and you won't arrive at monergism there. He wrote and covered a lot.

 

[fhansen]

I would point to the jailer at Philippi. When he asked what he had to do to be saved, the reply was:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Ac 16:31 NKJV)

Not, "Love the Lord Jesus Christ to this extent," or "Behave in this way." Of course, having been saved, certain things will follow, including love for the Saviour, and change of behaviour:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” (1Jo 4:19 NKJV)

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

But love for Jesus and good works are results, not causes, of being saved.

Paul understood that we're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9). This is saying that were saved by turning to God-acknowledging Him as our God again which is the most basic right and just order of things for man. That's the God Abraham knew and whom Jesus came to reveal so that we may know Him, and in knowing Him we may believe in, hope, in and love Him. That knoweldge is eternal life, our salvation (John 17:3).

"We love Him because He first loved us" denotes the reason we turn to Him to begin with-we're simply drawn to that which we love-and there's no greater justice/righteousness than to love God which is why the greatest commandment happens to be what it is. And to be perfected in that love would be to attain to our very created purpose. To encounter God and enter fellowship with Him is the beginning of the new covenant of Jer 31:33-34 fulfilled:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."

Either way:
"You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:4-6

 

[BNR32FAN]

How much is "quite a lot"? A close reading of the gospels indicates absolute and complete love for God with body, soul, and mind, not to mention possessions, yet in I Corinthians 13 Paul makes it explicit that even if one gives up his possessions to God (not to mention other forms of obedience) it is all quite in vain without love.

Yes I agree

 

[BNR32FAN]

I would point to the jailer at Philippi. When he asked what he had to do to be saved, the reply was:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Ac 16:31 NKJV)

Not, "Love the Lord Jesus Christ to this extent," or "Behave in this way." Of course, having been saved, certain things will follow, including love for the Saviour, and change of behaviour:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” (1Jo 4:19 NKJV)

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

But love for Jesus and good works are results, not causes, of being saved.

So how do you explain 1 Corinthians 13:2?

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If faith automatically results in love how would this passage be possible? The fact is that nowhere in the scriptures does it teach that faith automatically does anything apart from our cooperation with God.

 

[David Lamb]

So how do you explain 1 Corinthians 13:2?

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If faith automatically results in love how would this passage be possible? The fact is that nowhere in the scriptures does it teach that faith automatically does anything apart from our cooperation with God.

Our love for God does indeed result from His love for us, us John says. But neither a Christian's love for God nor his love for other people is automatic, like putting a coin in the slot. That verse from Ephesians 2 which I quoted says that Christians should walk in the God works God has prepared for them. I see no contradiction with 1 Cor 15:2, which anyway is hypothetical. Paul says "If....I do not have love."

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our love for God does indeed result from His love for us, us John says. But neither a Christian's love for God nor his love for other people is automatic, like putting a coin in the slot. That verse from Ephesians 2 which I quoted says that Christians should walk in the God works God has prepared for them. I see no contradiction with 1 Cor 15:2, which anyway is hypothetical. Paul says "If....I do not have love."

But your position is that faith results in obedience which would make Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 13:2 an impossible scenario. What Paul is indicating in that statement is that a person can of fact have an abundance of faith without having love for others which means that obedience isn’t the result of faith it’s the result of choice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our love for God does indeed result from His love for us, us John says. But neither a Christian's love for God nor his love for other people is automatic, like putting a coin in the slot. That verse from Ephesians 2 which I quoted says that Christians should walk in the God works God has prepared for them. I see no contradiction with 1 Cor 15:2, which anyway is hypothetical. Paul says "If....I do not have love."

Another thing I should point out is that our love for God is also not automatic because as I’m sure you’re aware of John 3:16 that God so loved the world, and yet the whole world does not love Him in return.

 

[David Lamb]

But your position is that faith results in obedience which would make Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 13:2 an impossible scenario. What Paul is indicating in that statement is that a person can of fact have an abundance of faith without having love for others which means that obedience isn’t the result of faith it’s the result of choice.

No, my position is that I believe Paul is saying that if he claiming to be a prophet, to have understanding, etc. would be shown to be false without love. That is why he says he would be like a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal - he would be nothing. Faith without love is not real faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, my position is that I believe Paul is saying that if he claiming to be a prophet, to have understanding, etc. would be shown to be false without love. That is why he says he would be like a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal - he would be nothing. Faith without love is not real faith.

No he doesn’t say anything about “claiming” he specifically says “if I have the gift of prophecy” and “if I have all faith” he doesn’t say anything about claiming to have these qualities.

 

[David Lamb]

No he doesn’t say anything about “claiming” he specifically says “if I have the gift of prophecy” and “if I have all faith” he doesn’t say anything about claiming to have these qualities.

No, but he says "if". He is not saying that it is possible to have faith without love at all. I think I was wrong to use the word "claim." He was rather putting forward the great importance of love in a Christian's life, and saying it was so essential, that if he didn't have love, he, with whatever abilities he might have, would be like a sounding brass, a nothing!

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, but he says "if". He is not saying that it is possible to have faith without love at all. I think I was wrong to use the word "claim." He was rather putting forward the great importance of love in a Christian's life, and saying it was so essential, that if he didn't have love, he, with whatever abilities he might have, would be like a sounding brass, a nothing!

Then you’re saying that he was describing an impossible scenario which is pointless. Whats the point of warning someone of an impossible scenario? You’ve got the same exact warning in James 2:14:26, Matthew 25:31-46, John 15:10-12 Revelation 2:2-7, all of these passages are referring to believers.

“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice Jesus didn’t say the one who is saved will endure to the end, He said the one who endures to the end will be saved. It’s perseverance that brings about salvation not salvation that brings about perseverance.

 

[fhansen]

Then you’re saying that he was describing an impossible scenario which is pointless. Whats the point of warning someone of an impossible scenario? You’ve got the same exact warning in James 2:14:26, Matthew 25:31-46, John 15:10-12 Revelation 2:2-7, all of these passages are referring to believers.

“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice Jesus didn’t say the one who is saved will endure to the end, He said the one who endures to the end will be saved. It’s perseverance that brings about salvation not salvation that brings about perseverance.

Agreed. Augustine actually put it this way: “Without love faith can indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

 

[BNR32FAN]

Agreed. Augustine actually put it this way: “Without love faith can indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

I think the fact that we often fail in obedience proves that faith does not automatically result in obedience. I think four of the main reasons for our disobedience are accidental, unawareness, complacency, and unwillingness to cooperate. Sometimes we don’t mean to sin, sometimes we’re not aware we are sinning, sometimes we’re just not paying attention, and sometimes we just flat out don’t want to comply even when we know we should. Our faith doesn’t eliminate these shortcomings.

 

[fhansen]

When we focus on faith as the central aspect of justification, the be-all and end-all of what it takes to be right in the eyes of God rather than the means to being just or right, then we miss the forest for the trees, we fail to truly and fully understand the gospel and what God desires from and for us in His work. Faith is the means by which we enter the fold, to becoming connected to the Vine. That vital connection, itself, is our justice, our righteousness. God is our justice to put it another way. And the primary name of that justice is love. To love is to reflect His own image.

Salvation is not about some sort of divine acid test consisting only of the need to believe in a certain set of factoids, which then gives us a carte blanc get-out-of-hell-free-card. Salvation is about becoming who we were created to be even if the completion of that journey doesn't happen until the next life, after having begun here. Faith, hope, and love are necessarily supernatural gifts of grace and, at the same time, they don't just "happen" to us because we can reject them; we can fail to embrace and express and act upon them, and fail to grow in them by failing to remain in Him. So they are necessarily also continous human choices, to pick up our cross and follow daily. And this is why Jesus, who knows better than anyone that love fulfills the law, can tell the young man in Matt 19:
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

or in Matt 6:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

or in Matt 5:
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Love is the gift of righteousness spoken of in Rom 5:17, the righteousness that the law and the prophets can only testify to but cannot accomplish in Rom 3:21, the reason the sheep are separated from the goats in Matt 25. Growth in love, agape, is the real acid test.

 

[fhansen]

I think the fact that we often fail in obedience proves that faith does not automatically result in obedience. I think four of the main reasons for our disobedience are accidental, unawareness, complacency, and unwillingness to cooperate. Sometimes we don’t mean to sin, sometimes we’re not aware we are sinning, sometimes we’re just not paying attention, and sometimes we just flat out don’t want to comply even when we know we should. Our faith doesn’t eliminate these shortcomings.

Yes. I may sometimes quote him too often but I like how Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, put it:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[fhansen]

I think the fact that we often fail in obedience proves that faith does not automatically result in obedience.

There are two falsehoods that are often set forth IMO.
1) Faith means I don't need to ovecome sin.
2) Faith means I'll automatically overcome sin.

 

[FredVB]

That raises two interesting questions in my mind -

1. How bad does one need to be to deserve eternity in the Lake of Fire?
2. How good does one need to be to deserve eternity in heaven with God?

Where is the Lake of Fire mentioned? Is it not in that book that is full of metaphorical and symbolic imagery? It means to me that the experience beyond this world of the fair justice any have after this life, where one is to die once, is beyond our comprehension, yet it is miserable because what things we do right are just what we are supposed to do, these do not pay anything for what wrong things we do, and this fair justice is left to them who remain apart from Christ. Real faith which is with repentance is what God will have for us coming to Christ for life in him who bore justice for us, that we have the life from him with his righteousness and justification applied to us in him. God has the conditions revealed for us to have this life. We should have the right works from the life of faith that happens with growth of the fruit of the Spirit, but nothing from us has us deserving eternity in heaven with God. We should conform to God's will ever more which happens with spiritual growth, it would have us mean it with saying to our Father in heaven: Your will on earth as it is in heaven. It would then show from us. Consider how to be in heaven before God... not sinning anymore. Repentance involves the intention to turn from sin, which we would do with being enabled.