Propitiation

[Hammster]

You are reading it as isolated words, where you should read the whole sentence and in context.

I have. Just as He (God) is holy, so you be holy. It is right there.

 

[zoidar]

I have. Just as He (God) is holy, so you be holy. It is right there.

That is true as it says, but it's not true we are to possess all aspects of God's holiness, then you miss the point. The point is we are to be holy like God how we live.

 

[Hammster]

That is true as it says, but it's not true we are to possess all aspects of God's holiness, then you miss the point. The point is we are to be holy like God how we live.

Peter sure wasn’t clear on that point.

 

[zoidar]

Peter sure wasn’t clear on that point.

In what sense do you think Peter means we are to be holy like God?

 

[Hammster]

In what sense do you think Peter means we are to be holy like God?

I’m going to take it at face value and say we are to be as holy (and as we’ve seen elsewhere) as perfect at God.

I can think of only one way to do that.

 

[zoidar]

I’m going to take it at face value and say we are to be as holy (and as we’ve seen elsewhere) as perfect at God.

I can think of only one way to do that.

Ok, so Peter tells them to be like God which is only possible through having Christ perfect righteousness imputed to them?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, so Peter tells them to be like God which is only possible trough having Christ perfect righteousnes imputed to them?

Unless you can think of another way.

 

[zoidar]

Unless you can think of another way.

I don't know what to say more than we read it differently.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know what to say more than we read it differently.

Well, yeah. I take it at face value. You don’t.

 

[FredVB]

I don't read that statement from Jesus shown in Matthew that way, and do not have a problem with it then. Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect, does not mean to me be perfect just as much as God is. That's impossible! Jesus was not saying to do what will only be impossible for us. The word as could be understood with using the word because, with much of the same understanding. God is perfect, so... you then be perfect. How do we do that? The possibility is in doing what we are here for, staying in the way possible for us within God's will for us. We just should not compromise. That we can do, with walking with God. We come to Christ with this meant for us. God is gracious and forgiving, where we fail, God restores us that we really do have the opportunity for that. We cannot be just as perfect as God is, but that just as was added in.

 

[fhansen]

I don't read that statement from Jesus shown in Matthew that way, and do not have a problem with it then. Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect, does not mean to me be perfect just as much as God is.

That's a great insight! Similarly, many theologians maintain that while fallen man is sinful, that doesn't mean that he's as bad he could possibly be, or "perfectly evil" to put it another way.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's a great insight! Similarly, many theologians maintain that while fallen man is sinful, that doesn't mean that he's as bad he could possibly be, or "perfectly evil" to put it another way.

That raises two interesting questions in my mind -

1. How bad does one need to be to deserve eternity in the Lake of Fire?
2. How good does one need to be to deserve eternity in heaven with God?

 

[fhansen]

That raises two interesting questions in my mind -

1. How bad does one need to be to deserve eternity in the Lake of Fire?
2. How good does one need to be to deserve eternity in heaven with God?

Those questions are inevitable. And the church dealt with them and other related questions centuries ago, incidentally. So let me ask you two as well. Can a believer sin wantonly, egregiously, persistently and expect to enter heaven? And why does Scripture spell out sins that will keep us from heaven?

 

[BNR32FAN]

That raises two interesting questions in my mind -

1. How bad does one need to be to deserve eternity in the Lake of Fire?
2. How good does one need to be to deserve eternity in heaven with God?

It’s not a question of how bad someone is or how good someone is but how much do they love Christ and how does a person who loves Christ behave?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It’s not a question of how bad someone is or how good someone is but how much do they love Christ and how does a person who loves Christ behave?

Please allow me to rephrase my questions, as follow -

1. How much must one love Christ in order to be saved?
2. What behavior is required from a person in order to be saved?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Those questions are inevitable. And the church dealt with them and other related questions centuries ago, incidentally. So let me ask you two as well. Can a believer sin wantonly, egregiously, persistently and expect to enter heaven? And why does Scripture spell out sins that will keep us from heaven?

As we all know, the responses to my questions vary significantly throughout the history of Christianity. For example, the monergism of Augustine is really quite unlike the synergism of contemporary forms of Christianity.

I think James addressed your first question very nicely in his epistle. Jesus Himself answered your second question when He clearly stated that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[David Lamb]

Please allow me to rephrase my questions, as follow -

1. How much must one love Christ in order to be saved?
2. What behavior is required from a person in order to be saved?

I would point to the jailer at Philippi. When he asked what he had to do to be saved, the reply was:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Ac 16:31 NKJV)

Not, "Love the Lord Jesus Christ to this extent," or "Behave in this way." Of course, having been saved, certain things will follow, including love for the Saviour, and change of behaviour:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” (1Jo 4:19 NKJV)

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

But love for Jesus and good works are results, not causes, of being saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please allow me to rephrase my questions, as follow -

1. How much must one love Christ in order to be saved?
2. What behavior is required from a person in order to be saved?

Apparently according to Matthew 10 we must love Him quite a lot.

““He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭37‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would point to the jailer at Philippi. When he asked what he had to do to be saved, the reply was:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Ac 16:31 NKJV)

Not, "Love the Lord Jesus Christ to this extent," or "Behave in this way." Of course, having been saved, certain things will follow, including love for the Saviour, and change of behaviour:

“We love Him because He first loved us.” (1Jo 4:19 NKJV)

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

But love for Jesus and good works are results, not causes, of being saved.

I agree entirely. Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Apparently according to Matthew 10 we must love Him quite a lot.

““He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭37‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How much is "quite a lot"? A close reading of the gospels indicates absolute and complete love for God with body, soul, and mind, not to mention possessions, yet in I Corinthians 13 Paul makes it explicit that even if one gives up his possessions to God (not to mention other forms of obedience) it is all quite in vain without love.