Propitiation

[Hammster]

True!

Is it impossible for those indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

 

[zoidar]

Yes.

Ok, but why does Jesus then say this?

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell⁠—and great was its fall.”
— Matthew 7:24-27

What would be the meaning then to be indwelled with the Holy Spirit other than having Christ righteousness imputed to us? Not that it's a small thing, but isn't the indwelling of the Holy Spirit supposed to make a difference how we live? Yes? But not that much it will make us follow Christ's words in the sermon?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, but why does Jesus then say this?

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell⁠—and great was its fall.”
— Matthew 7:24-27

What would be the meaning then to be indwelled with the Holy Spirit other than having Christ righteousness imputed to us? Not that it's a small thing, but isn't the indwelling of the Holy Spirit supposed to make a difference how we live? Yes? But not that much it will make us follow Christ's words in the sermon?

You can never be perfect. You can never be without sin. You can strive to be obedient and put sin to death, though, through the power of the Spirit. But that’s sanctification. We are talking about justification, though.

 

[HIM]

You can never be perfect. You can never be without sin.

Have faith, the "I" and "you" has been taken out of the equation. Though we might have sin We have victory over sinning. God says different from what you share.

 

[David Lamb]

Have faith The "I" has been taken out of the equation. Though we might have sin We have victory over sinning. God says different from what you share.

Sorry, what do you mean by "Though we might have sin We have victory over sinning"? Do you mean that we do sin, and then get victory over it, or that even though it is possible for us to sin, we don't because we have victory over it? Do you believe that we can be perfectly sinless in this life?

 

[HIM]

Of course the Saviour is perfect, but He is opposed by Satan, and we are often quicker to act upon Satan's suggestions. The Christian life is described as a fight, with the need for armour (spiritual armour, of course). The New Testament contains instructions to Christians such as "Resist the devil" and "Fight the good fight of faith". We also are given instances of people of God in both testaments falling into sin, such as Abraham, David and Peter. We do need the Saviour's perfect righteousness; our own is not enough.

We all sinned and have no righteousness in and of ourselves. It is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Without Him we can do nothing. But with God all things are possible.

God says, shall we continue in sin that grace abound? No in no way. How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein. For we are dead in and through Christ, but live. YET NOT US, but Christ Jesus LIVES IN us. And the Life WE now live in the flesh we live THROUGH the faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

BEHOLD all is new and of GOD. For we whom have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and are risen with Him. Now walking in His Spirit that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us. In this be not deceived, He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. therefore He that does righteous is righteous even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is a servant to it. And this servant shall not abide in the house forever. But the Son will. And if the Son shall make us free, free we are indeed. In this the children of God are manifested and the children of the Devil. We whom are born again through God do not commit sin. We can not sin because we are born of God.. For the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of sin and death that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

So where and in whom we walking?

 

[HIM]

Sorry, what do you mean by "Though we might have sin We have victory over sinning"? Do you mean that we do sin, and then get victory over it, or that even though it is possible for us to sin, we don't because we have victory over it? Do you believe that we can be perfectly sinless in this life?

That was already explained when you brought up our verse in 1Jo 1:8,9

It does not say, if we say we are not sinning. It says, if we say, we have no sin. There is a difference. One is a noun and the other is a verb. Confess before the action, We must fight the flesh. Sin is always knocking at the door. If we live after the flesh we shall die, but if we through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the Body we shall live.

Sin is always knocking at the door. We have choices as it presses upon us in the inside and or out.

If it is on the inside, such as lust. As the sin in thought or feeling arises we have a choice. Confess, assent unto the Lord the sin, give it to Him right away before it becomes and action or before we feed into it, which is a sin and thereby eventually do it and HE who is faithful will take it away and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

Then one asks rightly, how come we are being forgiven for something we haven't done?

We see the word forgiveness in the English, and we think that is what it simply is. It is so much more. This is seen in the Greek. God's forgiveness is a taking away. God will take away the sin before it becomes an act. We just have to assent unto Him who is in us when sin rises it's ugly head. He will not suffer us to be tempted above what we are able to bear. But with the temptation He has given us a way to bear through it. He is faith, by His stripes we have been healed.

 

[David Lamb]

We all sinned and have no righteousness in and of ourselves. It is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Without Him we can do nothing. But with God all things are possible.

God says, shall we continue in sin that grace abound? No in no way. How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein. For we are dead in and through Christ, but live. YET NOT US, but Christ Jesus LIVES IN us. And the Life WE now live in the flesh we live THROUGH the faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

BEHOLD all is new and of GOD. For we whom have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and are risen with Him. Now walking in His Spirit that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us. In this be not deceived, He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. therefore He that does righteous is righteous even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is a servant to it. And this servant shall not abide in the house forever. But the Son will. And if the Son shall make us free, free we are indeed. In this the children of God are manifested and the children of the Devil. We whom are born again through God do not commit sin. We can not sin because we are born of God.. For the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of sin and death that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

So where and in whom we walking?

Thanks for the reply. I hope you didn't read more into my post than I meant; I certainly do not believe, for example, that Christians should sin deliberately so that grace may abound. On the other hand, I do not believe either that Christians can be completely free from sin before reaching heaven. Would anyone dare say for example, "I love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength and all my mind every waking moment of every day"? I wouldn't.

 

[HIM]

Thanks for the reply. I hope you didn't read more into my post than I meant; I certainly do not believe, for example, that Christians should sin deliberately so that grace may abound. On the other hand, I do not believe either that Christians can be completely free from sin before reaching heaven. Would anyone dare say for example, "I love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength and all my mind every waking moment of every day"? I wouldn't.

You and I are not in the equation. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus. So as we look into a mirror and see what manner we now are, let's not forget we are begotten by the word of truth. Let us Forget those things that are behind and move forward to the high calling that is in and of Christ Jesus.

For What is not of faith is of sin. So let's not be tossed to and thro as the waves of the sea. For A double minded man is unstable in all there ways.

 

[Hammster]

Have faith, the "I" and "you" has been taken out of the equation. Though we might have sin We have victory over sinning. God says different from what you share.

Sinless perfectionism isn’t allowed in this forum.

 

[HIM]

Sinless perfectionism isn’t allowed in this forum.

Says one from no argument.

Incidentally, never said that is was a prerequisite. Only that is possible through Christ.

 

[zoidar]

You can never be perfect. You can never be without sin.

No, not a whole life, no!

You can strive to be obedient and put sin to death, though, through the power of the Spirit. But that’s sanctification. We are talking about justification, though.

But do you think Jesus is talking about sanctification generally in the Sermon on the Mount? Does this sound like sanctification? To me it all sound like obedience is a necessary part of salvation.

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
— Matthew 5:29

 

[Hammster]

Says one from no argument.

Incidentally, never said that is was a prerequisite. Only that is possible through Christ.

It’s not allowed to be discussed except in Controversial Christian Theology.

 

[Hammster]

No, not a whole life, no!

But do you think Jesus is talking about sanctification generally in the Sermon on the Mount? Does this sound like sanctification? To me it all sound like obedience is a necessary part of salvation.

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
— Matthew 5:29

Obedience is a necessity for a child of God in the same way obedience is necessary for my children.

But you need to remember that the Sermon on the Mount was given to Jews concerning the old covenant.

 

[HIM]

It’s not allowed to be discussed except in Controversial Christian Theology.

Where is that rule at? I remember seeing a rule saying we were not to allow to say it was prerequisite. No that we couldn't share that it was possible.
And I thought this was a Christian site.

 

[zoidar]

But you need to remember that the Sermon on the Mount was given to Jews concerning the old covenant.

Well, that's an interesting thought, just not fully sure what that means.

 

[Hammster]

Where is that rule at? I thought this was a Christian site.

My mistake. It’s not allowed anywhere.

• Teaching that sinless perfection is required to be a follower of Christ is not allowed on Christian forums. We are all sinners who Christ came to save. Insisting that sinless perfection is necessary in this world to attain heaven is not permitted as the topic of threads or to be brought into threads.

 

[HIM]

My mistake. It’s not allowed anywhere.

• Teaching that sinless perfection is required to be a follower of Christ is not allowed on Christian forums. We are all sinners who Christ came to save. Insisting that sinless perfection is necessary in this world to attain heaven is not permitted as the topic of threads or to be brought into threads.

Thank you I could not find it when I looked. I was using my phone though.

I see you have issue understanding what is in the rule. As stated, "Teaching that sinless perfection is required to be a follower of Christ is not allowed".
Never taught that it is required. We teach it is possible through Christ. And that Living in willful sin is an issue. Those who do such will not enter the Kingdom.

 

[zoidar]

Thank you I could not find it when I looked. I was using my phone though.

I see you have issue understanding what is in the rule. As stated, "Teaching that sinless perfection is required to be a follower of Christ is not allowed".
Never taught that it is required. We teach it is possible through Christ. And that Living in willful sin is an issue. Those who do such will not enter the Kingdom.

How do you define willful sin and living in such?

 

[HIM]

How do you define willful sin?

I don't.

The text in Hebrews 10:26 says if we are willfully of sinning. Because it is in the present tense and is a participle. This implies a present unconverted willful condition, a state of being.

And the text in first John 3:8 and 9 is stated in the present tense and it is also a participle. In other words it is a present state of being not something that happens on occasion. It is who that person is. They are unconverted and live in sin not mortifying the deeds of the Body that they should live