Propitiation

[Hammster]

All verses that say you need to believe to be saved might be used to support moral dept and legal dept. If Christ bore our moral dept then we wouldn't need to believe to be saved. So from that logic Christ can not have borne our moral dept.

Using that argument, if Christ bore our legal debt we wouldn’t need to be saved because there’s no law that we broke.

 

[rturner76]

John 2

And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

I see it not as our sins are no longer noticed or they are forgiven as soon as they have been committed but when we do have the stain of sin on us when we go to judgment, Jesus is our advocate who will always plea our innocence and being perfect, he always either gets the case dismissed or gets a not-guilty verdict every time.

So one can call their advocate and build a relationship so you can learn how to be a good citizen in the secular or spiritual world. Without an advocate, there is no guidance and we would be rolling the dice on judgment day. Just like in this world, if one goes to court with no lawyer, they only have a fraction of the chance of a good outcome as someone with n advocate.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This thread is about propitiation, so I will make the answer short.

The basic thing said in those passages is man is hopelessly lost without God and Christ. No one does good, no one is righteous, no one calls on the Lord. This is the state of unbelief. As soon you come to faith, you start doing good, you call on the Lord etc..

Sorry for OT!

Thanks! I apologize for the diversion, but was just curious.

 

[zoidar]

Using that argument, if Christ bore our legal debt we wouldn’t need to be saved because there’s no law that we broke.

If Christ was punished for our unbelief, then why would we need to believe to be saved? All our sins have been punished by Christ on the cross, then there can't be any judgment over us, even if we don't believe. How could it? What would we be punished for?

If Christ was punished for our legal dept, ie. the sins we commit, then why wouldn't there be a law we could break? He didn't take away the law, but was punished for the sins under the law. So no we could not be punished for sins he was punished for, but we could be punished for the sin of unbelief.

Don't know if I got it right, but it does not sound to me like the same thing.

 

[Hammster]

If Christ was punished for our unbelief, then why would we need to believe to be saved?

We need to believe to be justified because that’s how God set it up.

All our sins have been punished by Christ on the cross, then there can't be any judgment over us, even if we don't believe.

The judgement and punishment for the elect happened at the cross.

How could it? What would we be punished for?

We aren’t.

If Christ was punished for our legal dept, ie. the sins we commit, then why wouldn't there be a law we could break? He didn't take away the law, but was punished for the sins under the law. So no we could not be punished for sins he was punished for, but we could be punished for the sin of unbelief.

Are you saying He doesn’t actually bear the sins of all people?

 

[zoidar]

We need to believe to be justified because that’s how God set it up.

The judgement and punishment for the elect happened at the cross.

We aren’t.

Are you saying He doesn’t actually bear the sins of all people?

I will say this: I'm 100% sure Christ died for all sins in the whole world. There are however many different theories, Christus Victor, Ransom Theory, things like Penal Subsitution and so on. And we have David Allens view as well, which I mentioned to show Christ can indeed have taken the punishment for everyone while not saving everyone and still be a just God. That was my main point. How well this can be backed up from Scripture, I don't know. To me all these are theories, and I am not finished and maybe never will be finished pondering the different aspects and views of the atonement.

One thing is certain. The Bible does not give us all the details. To me the most important thing is holding to the truth that Jesus died for all sin in the whole world, that whoever believes can be saved. Since I would say that is clear from Scripture and is philosophically the most God honoring and reasonable view IMO. And as I mentioned the historicity of the Church supports an universal intent of the atonement as well. From there I'm willing to consider different theories about the "hows". But I think I'm done for now trying to Biblically prove David Allens view. It's a neat idea, I'll say that, it just does not give all the answers. Or at least I can't give all the answers to it.

 

[bling]

These aren’t innocent people in a burning building.

It does not matter, it is the fact the rescuer saves some when He could just as easily save them all. He needs a really good reason for saving only some.

He does have a good reason. We are sinners.

That is a stupid reason for saving some and not saving everyone, everyone is a sinner according to you.

He doesn’t force anyone to be goats. Or sheep.

God “making” some to be goats is the same as forcing against their will to be goats.

I have no idea what this means.

I am simple explaining what is fair/just and what is not Fair and just.

I have no idea. God hasn’t said.

The fact you have no idea show a lack of scripture knowledge.

Yes! God has said, some are sheep because they believe/trust/accept.

This understanding is hugely significant so to say: “God hasn’t said”, when He has said, would be a huge deception.

 

[bling]

I am always perplexed by people who don't seem to know simple biology. I live in Iowa, which is a hugely agricultural state. We have lots of pigs and lots of cattle, but not many sheep or goats. I can guarantee that only piglets get born to sows, not calves nor kids nor lambs. Only calves get born to cows, not piglets nor kids nor lambs. I can also guarantee that only kids get born to goats, not piglets nor calves nor lambs. Finally, only lambs get born to sheep, not kids nor piglets nor calves.

The only crossbreed is the mule which is the offspring of a horse and a donkey. Mules are sterile animals and incapable of producing more mules. If you want a mule then you need a horse and a donkey.

In any event, after these various critters are born they grow up to become hogs, sows, cows, bulls, rams, ewes, and goats, according to their birth species. It is impossible for them to change or alter their species or gender after birth.

I find myself in a curious culture today where I could make the decision that I am really the reincarnation of the atman and nobody can disprove me. The fact that I can make this decision does not, in any way, shape or form, prove the veracity of the belief in reincarnation or of the existence of the atman.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Paul is telling us those of Clay and wood can become vessels like silver and gold, which is physically impossible. We are not literally sheep or goats, but that is a Spiritual description. If the person changes the description changes.

 

[bling]

Maybe people are really born as spiritual platypuses and can decide along the way whether or not they want to be mammals or birds (by the way, even platypuses don't grow up and die to become anything other than platypuses).

Are you a literal sheep or goat or is that just a description with you able to change your description by changing your Love.

 

[Hammster]

It does not matter, it is the fact the rescuer saves some when He could just as easily save them all. He needs a really good reason for saving only some.

It does matter. The people you are talking about hate God. They spit in His face. He owes them nothing.

That is a stupid reason for saving some and not saving everyone, everyone is a sinner according to you.

And none of us deserve salvation

God “making” some to be goats is the same as forcing against their will to be goats.

Not at all. It the nature of man to hate God and spit in His face. He doesn’t need to make us goats. He just lets us be.

The fact you have no idea show a lack of scripture knowledge.

Yes! God has said, some are sheep because they believe/trust/accept.

You have that backwards. Some believe/trust/accept because they are sheep.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
— John 10:26-27

This understanding is hugely significant so to say: “God hasn’t said”, when He has said, would be a huge deception.

And apparently you misunderstood what was said.

 

[bling]

It does matter. The people you are talking about hate God. They spit in His face. He owes them nothing.

All the people in the burning building: hate God, spit on His face and He owes them only what He obligated Himself to do for them, so how can He save some and not all since they are equally offensive. Are you saying some are better than others?

And none of us deserve salvation

OK, so why does God save some and not all, since it is just as easy and safe to save them all as it would be to just save some? Why would it not be more Loving to save all then to save just some?

Not at all. It the nature of man to hate God and spit in His face. He doesn’t need to make us goats. He just lets us be.

Are you suggesting man makes man?

You said God makes some people goats and some people sheep from the beginning, so does God not have the power to make only sheep?

You have that backwards. Some believe/trust/accept because they are sheep.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
— John 10:26-27

John 10:26-27 does not say how people become sheep. Humans are being described as sheep and goats not because they are literally a lamb or a goat, but because that is how Jesus describes how humans are acting at a time. If a human’s actions change, they change the way Jesus would describe them.

And apparently you misunderstood what was said.

That is what we are discussing. God makes it clear what He wants.

 

[Hammster]

All the people in the burning building: hate God, spit on His face and He owes them only what He obligated Himself to do for them, so how can He save some and not all since they are equally offensive. Are you saying some are better than others?

You are making grace as something God is obligated to show. That’s not grace.

OK, so why does God save some and not all, since it is just as easy and safe to save them all as it would be to just save some? Why would it not be more Loving to save all then to save just some?

No idea. I’ve already stated that.

Are you suggesting man makes man?

You said God makes some people goats and some people sheep from the beginning, so does God not have the power to make only sheep?

I said some are born goats and some sheep. Goats are natural. Sheep are those who are shown grace.

John 10:26-27 does not say how people become sheep. Humans are being described as sheep and goats not because they are literally a lamb or a goat, but because that is how Jesus describes how humans are acting at a time. If a human’s actions change, they change the way Jesus would describe them.

It shows the cause of their disbelief.

That is what we are discussing. God makes it clear what He wants.

He wants all men to repent.

 

[zoidar]

He wants all men to repent.

Finally something we agree on.

I like that you hold this view.

 

[Hammster]

Finally something we agree on.

I like that you hold this view.

It’s clearly stated.

 

[bling]

You are making grace as something God is obligated to show. That’s not grace.

To be the epitome of Love, would God not also have to be the epitome of Grace? God has obligated Himself to be gracious to everyone and He does.

No idea. I’ve already stated that.

We know God the Father from what we Know of Christ the Son. Who was Christ not wanting to help?

I said some are born goats and some sheep. Goats are natural. Sheep are those who are shown grace.

You say “Goats are natural”, so is “natural births” not totally controlled by God?

Why would God not show grace to all people?

It shows the cause of their disbelief.

It is true that these Jews whom Jesus taught and had witnessed his Miracles refused to believe the obvious so they were not his sheep.

He wants all men to repent.

Very good, but are you not also saying. “God has made some humans who cannot repent?”

 

[John Mullally]

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[Hammster]

To be the epitome of Love, would God not also have to be the epitome of Grace? God has obligated Himself to be gracious to everyone and He does.

No, He hasn’t. Just a cursory read of the OT will show you that.

We know God the Father from what we Know of Christ the Son. Who was Christ not wanting to help?

Let’s start with the majority of the religious leaders.

You say “Goats are natural”, so is “natural births” not totally controlled by God?

I’m saying that He doesn’t need to do anything for someone to be born a goat.

Why would God not show grace to all people?

Are you expecting a different answer the third time around?

It is true that these Jews whom Jesus taught and had witnessed his Miracles refused to believe the obvious so they were not his sheep.

And He told them the cause of their disbelief.

Very good, but are you not also saying. “God has made some humans who cannot repent?”

Will not, not cannot.

 

[zoidar]

Will not, not cannot.

They will not because they cannot will it.

 

[Hammster]

They will not because they cannot will it.

They don’t want to.

 

[zoidar]

They don’t want to.

They cannot want to, since they are not capable of wanting to.