Propitiation

[Hammster]

Ok! So God forgave us at the cross, the most powerful thing in the whole universe and what happend to us? Absolutely nothing! What I guess you will say happens is God now sees us differently? But nothing really happened to us, we are still pigs in the mud? Forgiven pigs in the mud. Or is there something I'm missing?

I on the other hand believe when you are forgiven, you are washed clean, regenerated, made a child of God and all through the cross when you repent and believ

We seem to be getting out of control with these long posts, so I’m going to switch gears here for a bit. Do you think that Jesus died for his sheep or do you see somewhere in scripture where it also says he died for goats that aren’t his sheep?

 

[Samson2021]

The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity

These two ideas do not fit at all together. I have to take scripture over your opinion. The reconciliation of the Jew and the Gentile is
the reconciliation of all people. Nobody, when it's finished, can be found to toss into a spiritual lake of fire.
The Jew and the Gentile are reconciled by being born into the body of Christ(Jesus as head), that verse 16 states that both Jew and Gentile
are to be reconciled back to God in the one body(Body of Christ) which each individual that is born of the Spirit is baptized into, so the body
continues to grow until it has no one left to add to it.

Lets ask the question, What is the point in being made a priest unto God unless there are people to whom you are making intercession for?
Is this not what Jesus is doing now? So once perfection comes and their are many more priests than just Jesus, what is their role?

 

[Samson2021]

We seem to be getting out of control with these long posts, so I’m going to switch gears here for a bit. Do you think that Jesus died for his sheep or do you see somewhere in scripture where it also says he died for goats that aren’t his sheep?

Who are His sheep other than the ones whom the Father hath given Him? All were goats to begin with.

 

[zoidar]

We seem to be getting out of control with these long posts, so I’m going to switch gears here for a bit. Do you think that Jesus died for his sheep or do you see somewhere in scripture where it also says he died for goats that aren’t his sheep?

I'll be willing to answer that. Just one more question. Do you believe those forgiven at the time of the cross are still children of wrath until they are regenerated?

 

[bbbbbbb]

These two ideas do not fit at all together. I have to take scripture over your opinion. The reconciliation of the Jew and the Gentile is
the reconciliation of all people. Nobody, when it's finished, can be found to toss into a spiritual lake of fire.
The Jew and the Gentile are reconciled by being born into the body of Christ(Jesus as head), that verse 16 states that both Jew and Gentile
are to be reconciled back to God in the one body(Body of Christ) which each individual that is born of the Spirit is baptized into, so the body
continues to grow until it has no one left to add to it.

Lets ask the question, What is the point in being made a priest unto God unless there are people to whom you are making intercession for?
Is this not what Jesus is doing now? So once perfection comes and their are many more priests than just Jesus, what is their role?

Did you misquote me intentionally? I certainly do not appreciate anyone who misquotes anyone else for any reason.

What I actually posted was this -

The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire. However, he has predestined a very small minority of humanity for eternal life with Him in heaven.

 

[zoidar]

We seem to be getting out of control with these long posts, so I’m going to switch gears here for a bit. Do you think that Jesus died for his sheep or do you see somewhere in scripture where it also says he died for goats that aren’t his sheep?

I think Jesus died for, dealt with the sin of the world, for the sake of his Church, his sheep. Now I believe everyone can become a sheep and a member of his Church. What you would need to do is prove we are born sheep or goat and that it stays the same all through life.

 

[Hammster]

Who are His sheep other than the ones whom the Father hath given Him? All were goats to begin with.

No.

 

[Hammster]

I'll be willing to answer that. Just one more question. Do you believe those forgiven at the time of the cross are still children of wrath until they are regenerated?

I never said they were children of wrath. Scripture says they were the same nature as children of wrath.

 

[zoidar]

I never said they were children of wrath. Scripture says they were the same nature as children of wrath.

Yeah right, sorry forgot!

 

[Hammster]

I think Jesus died for, dealt with the sin of the world, for the sake of his Church, his sheep. Now I believe everyone can become a sheep and a member of his Church. What you would need to do is prove we are born sheep or goat and that it stays the same all through life.

What would you accept as proof?

 

[zoidar]

What would you accept as proof?

I don't know. Something like you have always been a sheep/goat or from birth a sheep/goat. At least it would have been a strong argument.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know. Something like you have always been a sheep/goat or from birth a sheep/goat. At least it would have been a strong argument.

Let’s start here

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

This is Him taking the punishment for the sheep. It’s not Him taking punishment for goats who will become sheep.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s start here

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

This is Him taking the punishment for the sheep. It’s not Him taking punishment for goats who will become sheep.

To me sheep and goats could be seen as synonymous to those who are accepting him and those who are of denial of him. So it would be like Jesus saying: "I lay down my life for those who accept me." I don't see him saying this (sheep or goat) being a predetermined state you are born in or something God has decreed, but simply how things are at this very moment.

 

[bling]

Maybe this will help. Everybody deserves hell. The wages of sin is death. So those whom God does not choose, are not being treated unjustly. They are getting what they deserve. Basically it is not unjust for God to not save somebody.

The idea of the rescuer saving a few people in the burning building, when He could just as easily and safely save all the people, does not present a fair/just Loving rescuer.

For God to be perceived and seen as being absolute Love, beyond our imagination, God needs an excellent just reason for not saving everyone. That reason is obvious, logical and totally just.

Yes, we all act like goats. That’s what Ephesians 2:1-5 says. And no, there’s no transformation from goats to sheep. Nowhere does it say that Christ died for the goats. It only says that he died for the sheep.

Why would God have to make/force/program some people to be goats at conception, if he could just as easily make/force/program everyone to be a sheep at conception? How is that fair and just?

It does not make it fair and Just to create some people sheep and other’s goats at conception, but perfectly just to create everyone equal in the areas that really matter.

You keep saying we all deserve hell, but now you say some of us are sheep intitled to heaven for God’s reason, but what causes some to be sheep? (Is it random selection by God?)

Christ died for sinners.

 

[Hammster]

To me sheep and goats could be seen as synonymous to those who are accepting him and those who are of denial of him. So it would be like Jesus saying: "I lay down my life for those who accept me." I don't see him saying this (sheep or goat) being a predetermined state you are born in or something God has decreed, but simply how things are at this very moment.

I guess you can just pretend that sheep and goats are synonymous. Thats really the only way to make it work. So to recap, your theology has sheep and goats as the same, and you have a difference between moral and legal guilt. And no scripture to support either. All to get around the idea that God has no intention to try to save everyone.

 

[Hammster]

The idea of the rescuer saving a few people in the burning building, when He could just as easily and safely save all the people, does not present a fair/just Loving rescuer.

These aren’t innocent people in a burning building.

For God to be perceived and seen as being absolute Love, beyond our imagination, God needs an excellent just reason for not saving everyone. That reason is obvious, logical and totally just.

He does have a good reason. We are sinners.

Why would God have to make/force/program some people to be goats at conception, if he could just as easily make/force/program everyone to be a sheep at conception? How is that fair and just?

He doesn’t force anyone to be goats. Or sheep.

It does not make it fair and Just to create some people sheep and other’s goats at conception, but perfectly just to create everyone equal in the areas that really matter.

I have no idea what this means.

You keep saying we all deserve hell, but now you say some of us are sheep intitled to heaven for God’s reason, but what causes some to be sheep? (Is it random selection by God?)

Christ died for sinners.

I have no idea. God hasn’t said.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am always perplexed by people who don't seem to know simple biology. I live in Iowa, which is a hugely agricultural state. We have lots of pigs and lots of cattle, but not many sheep or goats. I can guarantee that only piglets get born to sows, not calves nor kids nor lambs. Only calves get born to cows, not piglets nor kids nor lambs. I can also guarantee that only kids get born to goats, not piglets nor calves nor lambs. Finally, only lambs get born to sheep, not kids nor piglets nor calves.

The only crossbreed is the mule which is the offspring of a horse and a donkey. Mules are sterile animals and incapable of producing more mules. If you want a mule then you need a horse and a donkey.

In any event, after these various critters are born they grow up to become hogs, sows, cows, bulls, rams, ewes, and goats, according to their birth species. It is impossible for them to change or alter their species or gender after birth.

I find myself in a curious culture today where I could make the decision that I am really the reincarnation of the atman and nobody can disprove me. The fact that I can make this decision does not, in any way, shape or form, prove the veracity of the belief in reincarnation or of the existence of the atman.

 

[zoidar]

I guess you can just pretend that sheep and goats are synonymous. Thats really the only way to make it work. So to recap, your theology has sheep and goats as the same, and you have a difference between moral and legal guilt. And no scripture to support either. All to get around the idea that God has no intention to try to save everyone.

I kind of said goats are synonymous to those who deny Christ and sheep are synonymous to those who accept Christ, not that goats and sheep are the same. Was that unclear? I think the burden of proof is on you to show we are born goats or sheep and that it is an unchangable state. You have no support for that from Scripture. That Christ died for sheep isn't proving one or the other.

In the last discussion we had about the atonement I wasn't promoting the idea of legal and moral guilt, rather that Christ was punished for sin, but our personal sins were not not put on Christ until we repent and believe. You ended that discussion, but I think I had good arguments. You also have no ground in Scripture for saying we are forgiven at the time of the cross. Scripture is, I would say clear, we are forgiven when we come to faith (Ac 10:43).

Btw, God's intention is to save whoever believes (John 3:16). I have said nothing in the line with God trying to save everyone. So that is on you.

I don't know how to get you to see this, but Calvinism is not Biblical. You can probably make it work as a coherent idea, I won't say you can't. It's still not a Biblical idea, but a late theological idea that started with Augustine and was built upon by Calvin and others. And as far as I know Calvin didn't even endorse limited atonement, yet many Calvinists do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Maybe people are really born as spiritual platypuses and can decide along the way whether or not they want to be mammals or birds (by the way, even platypuses don't grow up and die to become anything other than platypuses).

 

[zoidar]

I am always perplexed by people who don't seem to know simple biology. I live in Iowa, which is a hugely agricultural state. We have lots of pigs and lots of cattle, but not many sheep or goats. I can guarantee that only piglets get born to sows, not calves nor kids nor lambs. Only calves get born to cows, not piglets nor kids nor lambs. I can also guarantee that only kids get born to goats, not piglets nor calves nor lambs. Finally, only lambs get born to sheep, not kids nor piglets nor calves.

The only crossbreed is the mule which is the offspring of a horse and a donkey. Mules are sterile animals and incapable of producing more mules. If you want a mule then you need a horse and a donkey.

In any event, after these various critters are born they grow up to become hogs, sows, cows, bulls, rams, ewes, and goats, according to their birth species. It is impossible for them to change or alter their species or gender after birth.

I find myself in a curious culture today where I could make the decision that I am really the reincarnation of the atman and nobody can disprove me. The fact that I can make this decision does not, in any way, shape or form, prove the veracity of the belief in reincarnation or of the existence of the atman.

You know some frogs can change gender? Are we going to make theology from that? Point being, symbols are symbols, not biology.