Propitiation

[zoidar]

So, if a person does not actively disbelieve in the gospel, then can they be saved? For example, the hundreds of millions of folks in China who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, nor ever will hear His name in their lifetime. If some, or any, of these folks can be saved, under what terms will they be saved?

If you live in sin like unbelievers do, I doubt you will be saved, but if those who never heard the gospel can be saved somehow, is another topic.

 

[Hammster]

I said I don't know. I suppose it is.

There is a reason we need to repent to be saved. If Jesus died for all sin, and unrepentance is a sin, how come we need to repent to be saved? That is why I'm not sure. We need to explain that somehow. Maybe you got a good explanation?

You are seeing the reason for my OP. If non-repentance is sinful, and Jesus died for all sin, then it’s not unrighteous to save someone who doesn’t repent. It’s unrighteous to send anyone to hell who has their sins paid for.

 

[zoidar]

You are seeing the reason for my OP. If non-repentance is sinful, and Jesus died for all sin, then it’s not unrighteous to save someone who doesn’t repent. It’s unrighteous to send anyone to hell who has their sins paid for.

One answer is the view of David Allen. Christ paid the legal dept and not the moral dept. That's why it would be unjust to save a person who hasn't repented.

You say where is that described in Scripture. It doesn't have to since the Scripture doesn't deal with such details. It's however seen we need to repent to be saved, and that shows Christ didn't pay for our sin of unrepentance. If he did, repentance wouldn't be necessary.

Even if Christ did pay for unrepentance, it would still be unjust to save someone who hasn't repented, since the person is not willing to receive the payment for unrepentance. So the transaction can't be made. At least not without God making violence to the person's will, which would be an unrighteous thing to do.

 

[Hammster]

One answer is the view of David Allen. Christ paid the legal dept and not the moral dept. That's why it would be unjust to save a person who hasn't repented.

You say where is that described in Scripture. It doesn't have to since the Scripture doesn't deal with such details. It's however seen we need to repent to be saved, and that shows Christ didn't pay for our sin of unrepentance. If he did, repentance wouldn't be necessary.

Even if Christ did pay for unrepentance, it would still be unjust to save someone who hasn't repented, since the person is not willing to receive the payment for unrepentance. So the transaction can't be made. At least not without God making violence to the person's will, which would be an unrighteous thing to do.

Okay, let’s say it’s unjust for God to justify someone whose sins are atoned for. Is it just for them to be punished for sins Christ took the punishment for?

 

[Samson2021]

Even if Christ did pay for unrepentance, it would still be unjust to save someone who hasn't repented, since the person is not willing to receive the payment for unrepentance. So the transaction can't be made. At least not without God making violence to the person's will, which would be an unrighteous thing to do.

The idea of repentance for salvation is a work that would bring salvation. Salvation itself is a gift, the repentance comes after.
In preparing the way there was a preaching of repentance for remission of sins, but after the crucifixion it was simply believe
that your sins have been forgiven you because of His sacrifice. Who believes from the heart? Gods elect for He gives them the faith necessary to believe. Once the faith of Christ is received repentance is natural to the newly born creature.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will begat He us, through the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures(sons).

Jesus was the first Son to be raised, then the first fruits will be raised when He returns. And that is simply the order of the resurrection
according to His grace.
The only one that deserved to be raised was Jesus Christ. The rest do not.

You should consider that the unrepentant are the ones whom the blinders are still on, the hearts are still hardened, and both of those
things are done by the Father for the sake of the believer. Rom 11:7-28

Okay, let’s say it’s unjust for God to justify someone whose sins are atoned for. Is it just for them to be punished for sins Christ took the punishment for?

It would be unjust for God to not justify the one who's sins have been atoned for. It would be requiring a double payment.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you live in sin like unbelievers do, I doubt you will be saved, but if those who never heard the gospel can be saved somehow, is another topic.

I have known a wide range of unbelievers. To my personal surprise, many of them excel Christians in their lifestyles. They are far more moral, ethical, loving, kind, etc. than many professing Christians I have known. It is absolutely true that these people live in a state of complete unbelief, having never encountered anything related to the Christian faith. It is a great stretch to accuse them of "living in sin". Perhaps you could better define for me what "living in sin" actually entails.

Thank you.

 

[zoidar]

I have known a wide range of unbelievers. To my personal surprise, many of them excel Christians in their lifestyles. They are far more moral, ethical, loving, kind, etc. than many professing Christians I have known. It is absolutely true that these people live in a state of complete unbelief, having never encountered anything related to the Christian faith. It is a great stretch to accuse them of "living in sin". Perhaps you could better define for me what "living in sin" actually entails.

Thank you.

Sure, I can look back at my own life as an unbeliever. I was living in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, I watched "porn" on the net, cheated with taxes, lied to my teacher to get better grades, barely gave anything to the poor, took any chance to get things for free I knew I really should have paid for. My life was soaked in sin.

 

[Hammster]

@zoidar

This

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar

This

I will respond, just thinking about how to respond.

 

[zoidar]

Okay, let’s say it’s unjust for God to justify someone whose sins are atoned for. Is it just for them to be punished for sins Christ took the punishment for?

There are a few things to be said. First of all Christ didn't take the punishment for a specific amount of sin, he just took the punishment for sin. So it could even be said he took the punishment for the sins no one ever made, IOW you can't measure it in amount. So maybe that makes it easier to see how Christ didn't take the punishment for specific sins.

I know many people won't agree, but I believe Christ bears our sins from the moment we come to faith. Until then the atoning sacrifice is a punishment for sin, but does not bear my specific sins. As I come to faith my sins are laid unto the atoning sacrifice of Christ, the punishment for sin, and I'm free from guilt.

From this view there is no double payment for sin. Either my sins are put on Christ punishment through my faith, or the sins stay on me and I will be punished for them accordingly.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure, I can look back at my own life as an unbeliever. I was living in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, I watched "inappropriate content" on the net, cheated with taxes, lied to my teacher to get better grades, barely gave anything to the poor, took any chance to get things for free I knew I really should have paid for. My life was soaked in sin.

That was your experience and, sadly, is similar to the lives of the majority of humanity, but not everybody. Believe it or not, there are some (by human standards at least) decent, moral, ethical, happy individuals who definitely have their act together, but who are not Christians primarily because they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ and who never will during their lifetime on this earth.

 

[Hammster]

There are a few things to be said. First of all Christ didn't take the punishment for a specific amount of sin, he just took the punishment for sin. So it could even be said he took the punishment for the sins no one ever made, IOW you can't measure it in amount. So maybe that makes it easier to see how Christ didn't take the punishment for specific sins.

I know many people won't agree, but I believe Christ bears our sins from the moment we come to faith. Until then the atoning sacrifice is a punishment for sin, but does not bear my specific sins. As I come to faith my sins are laid unto the atoning sacrifice of Christ, the punishment for sin, and I'm free from guilt.

From this view there is no double payment for sin. Either my sins are put on Christ punishment through my faith, or the sins stay on me and I will be punished for them accordingly.

Well, let’s see if that holds.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

That looks pretty specific to me.

 

[bling]

It’s not fair at all. All of us should be goats.

So, you feel your view of God shows Him to be not "Just"?
My God is totally just and fair, so are we talking about different Gods?
Are you not saying that at conception some babies are just destined for hell, not due to anything they did or said?

 

[bling]

I think the verse is stating that he as well as all of us were born under condemnation. The carnal mind is at odds with God and cannot be
subject to Gods law (love). Being separated from Him is what causes us to sin for we believe we are our own God, we make all the
choices, the determinations that bring about the outcomes. Not true but the mind believes it.

You change the timing, Psalms 51: 5 is talking about a sin with conception, but you are changing it to sin at birth. There is not mind at conception.

 

[bling]

Paul was on his way to arrest those of the church when he had a divine visitation. That was the point being made. He was not a repentant
person until AFTER he learned the truth of his own salvation. "We love Him for He first loved us" Paul as an example simply shows it
isn't about repentance in advance of salvation for that would be a work that one would cling to, and seem righteous in their own eyes.
We know it is a gift, the repentance(change of mind, attitude etc..) come after salvation.

Those that do believe from the heart are those that have received the faith and love that come from Jesus Christs fullness. As a gift from
the Father. This is how God becomes the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus because He is the dispenser of both. Rom 3:26
It is an election according to grace. Nobody deserves it, but God has to start with someone then add to it as He predetermined to add.

Our head faith is not the faith in God that is imputed to us. It is Jesus Christs faith imputed to us that is accounted for our righteousness.
If we pretend that we can add to that and make it better, we deceive ourselves, as it doesn't get better than perfect already. We only
spot the garment(righteousness) with fleshly works that make us think we deserve it.

As a sinner you can change directions (repent) and not do one sin but do another sin. An unbelieving sinners initial change in direction will not be away from sinning or still having satan as his master.
The unbelieving sinner's choice is between, being macho, hanging in there, continuing to rely on self, and be willing to take the punishment you fully deserve OR wimping out, giving up on self and surrendering to your hated enemy (God) to hopefully receive totally undeserved pure charity. This is all done for selfish reasons (making it a sinful reason). After the sinner is showed by his enemy with unbelievable wonderful charitable gifts which is received as charity, huge changes occur.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a sinner you can change directions (repent) and not do one sin but do another sin. An unbelieving sinners initial change in direction will not be away from sinning or still having satan as his master.
The unbelieving sinner's choice is between, being macho, hanging in there, continuing to rely on self, and be willing to take the punishment you fully deserve OR wimping out, giving up on self and surrendering to your hated enemy (God) to hopefully receive totally undeserved pure charity. This is all done for selfish reasons (making it a sinful reason). After the sinner is showed by his enemy with unbelievable wonderful charitable gifts which is received as charity, huge changes occur.

Actually, for the vast majority of unbelievers there is absolutely no choice to the matter. Given the fact that they will never even hear the name of Jesus Christ during their lifetime on earth they are bound to Satan as their master both in this life and in eternity.

 

[Hammster]

So, you feel your view of God shows Him to be not "Just"?

Not at all. God would be just, though, if He didn’t save anyone.

My God is totally just and fair, so are we talking about different Gods?

Does your God owe man anything?

Are you not saying that at conception some babies are just destined for hell, not due to anything they did or said?

I’m saying that one is born a sheep or a goat.

 

[zoidar]

That was your experience and, sadly, is similar to the lives of the majority of humanity, but not everybody. Believe it or not, there are some (by human standards at least) decent, moral, ethical, happy individuals who definitely have their act together, but who are not Christians primarily because they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ and who never will during their lifetime on this earth.

If you are born again you no longer live like this. If you do there must be the doubt you are born again.

Of course there are like you put it "decent, moral, ethical, happy individuals", but I don't think there is any individual on Earth who hasn't been born again who isn't bound to sin one way or another. It's when a person is born again he breaks free from the spiral of sin.

Anyway, exactly where are you going with this? Is your concern that people who never heard about Christ can't be saved?

 

[zoidar]

Well, let’s see if that holds.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

That looks pretty specific to me.

Do we agree this is something that happens after faith?

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
— Colossians 2:13

 

[Hammster]

Do we agree this is something that happens after faith?

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
— Colossians 2:13

It doesn’t say that it happens after faith. Same here:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
— Ephesians 2:4-5