Propitiation

[zoidar]

It doesn’t say that it happens after faith. Same here:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
— Ephesians 2:4-5

Ok, so you think we are alive in Christ as children of wrath, living in sin?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, so you think we are alive in Christ as children of wrath, living in sin?

Not at all. Let’s see what Ephesians says:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:1-6

We were dead in sin, living like the children of wrath. But God made us alive. That’s regeneration. That’s the new heart. With our new heart, we believed and were made righteous. We would not believe with the old heart of stone because of what Paul tells us in Romans:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

So we needed to have minds not set on the flesh. We needed to be born again.

 

[bling]

Actually, for the vast majority of unbelievers there is absolutely no choice to the matter. Given the fact that they will never even hear the name of Jesus Christ during their lifetime on earth they are bound to Satan as their master both in this life and in eternity.

Does this group of yours include unborn babies and if not, why not?
Do you take on part of the blame for these never hearing the name Jesus Christ?
Is God being fair/just with these people, in comparison to the way God has handled you?
I am not finding in scripture how the mentally handicapped, babies and those who never had the opportunity to accept or reject God's Love will be judged. We know God judges the hearts of people, so should our hearts be like God's heart toward these people?

 

[zoidar]

Not at all. Let’s see what Ephesians says:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:1-6

We were dead in sin, living like the children of wrath. But God made us alive. That’s regeneration. That’s the new heart. With our new heart, we believed and were made righteous. We would not believe with the old heart of stone because of what Paul tells us in Romans:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

So we needed to have minds not set on the flesh. We needed to be born again.

Ok, then we agree Col 2:13 is something that happens after regeneration?

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
— Colossians 2:13

 

[bling]

Not at all. God would be just, though, if He didn’t save anyone.

You say: "God would be just", but you said in post 373, "It’s not fair at all." Justice requires the equal treatment of people for equal offences, taking all factors into consideration.
God is self-requiring to do what He promised, so He will save those He said He would save.

Does your God owe man anything?

God owes it to Himself to be God.

I’m saying that one is born a sheep or a goat.

Do not all mature adults act like goats to begin with?
Is there not a miraculous transformation from being a goat to becoming a sheep?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not at all. God would be just, though, if He didn’t save anyone.

Does your God owe man anything?

I’m saying that one is born a sheep or a goat.

Quite true. As in nature where it is impossible for a goat to become a sheep, so in the analogy. Never in scripture does one find the concept that somehow everyone is born a goat and then, through some effort on their part, they become a sheep.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you are born again you no longer live like this. If you do there must be the doubt you are born again.

Of course there are like you put it "decent, moral, ethical, happy individuals", but I don't think there is any individual on Earth who hasn't been born again who isn't bound to sin one way or another. It's when a person is born again he breaks free from the spiral of sin.

Anyway, exactly where are you going with this? Is your concern that people who never heard about Christ can't be saved?

Good questions. Thank you for them. My point is that God does not treat everyone on earth equally. One might conclude that if that is the case, then God is manifestly unfair and unjust. The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire. However, he has predestined a very small minority of humanity for eternal life with Him in heaven.

 

[Samson2021]

Good questions. Thank you for them. My point is that God does not treat everyone on earth equally. One might conclude that if that is the case, then God is manifestly unfair and unjust. The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire. However, he has predestined a very small minority of humanity for eternal life with Him in heaven.

How does that fit into Eph 1:10-12 As all things are to be gathered together in Christ.
And notice in 12 it states "who FIRST trusted in Christ."

 

[Hammster]

Ok, then we agree Col 2:13 is something that happens after regeneration?

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
— Colossians 2:13

That IS regeneration.

 

[Hammster]

You say: "God would be just", but you said in post 373, "It’s not fair at all." Justice requires the equal treatment of people for equal offences, taking all factors into consideration.
God is self-requiring to do what He promised, so He will save those He said He would save.

Maybe this will help. Everybody deserves hell. The wages of sin is death. So those whom God does not choose, are not being treated unjustly. They are getting what they deserve. Basically it is not unjust for God to not save somebody.

God owes it to Himself to be God.

So he acts justly. See above.

Do not all mature adults act like goats to begin with?
Is there not a miraculous transformation from being a goat to becoming a sheep?

Yes, we all act like goats. That’s what Ephesians 2:1-5 says. And no, there’s no transformation from goats to sheep. Nowhere does it say that Christ died for the goats. It only says that he died for the sheep.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How does that fit into Eph 1:10-12 As all things are to be gathered together in Christ.
And notice in 12 it states "who FIRST trusted in Christ."

It fits this way -

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

 

[zoidar]

That IS regeneration.

So having your sins forgiven is regeneration? We agree so far. How do you then connect Col 2:13-14 to that our sins were borne at the time cross? Why not just say our sins were borne when we got regenerated, since this was when we were forgiven.

If he did bear our sins at the time of cross it means he bore sins (or was punished for sins) that didn't exist yet.

 

[zoidar]

Good questions. Thank you for them. My point is that God does not treat everyone on earth equally. One might conclude that if that is the case, then God is manifestly unfair and unjust. The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire. However, he has predestined a very small minority of humanity for eternal life with Him in heaven.

My view is that God deals with each person individually. As an example God does not demand the same things from a 5 or 10 year old, as from a 30 year old person. Neither does He judge those that never heard the gospel the same way as someone who heard and rejected it. In the end we have to leave judgment to God. He will judge us with love and that also includes justice. No one will ever be able to say His judgment was unfair.

 

[Hammster]

So having your sins forgiven is regeneration? We agree so far. How do you then connect Col 2:13-14 to that our sins were borne at the time cross? Why not just say our sins were borne when we got regenerated, since this was when we were forgiven.

Your sins are forgiven at the cross. Thats what Paul said.

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:14

If he did bear our sins at the time of cross it means he bore sins (or was punished for sins) that didn't exist yet.

Which isn’t a problem for an Omniscient God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My view is that God deals with each person individually. As an example God does not demand the same things from a 5 or 10 year old, as from a 30 year old person. Neither does He judge those that never heard the gospel the same way as someone who heard and rejected it. In the end we have to leave judgment to God. He will judge us with love and that also includes justice. No one will ever be able to say His judgment was unfair.

Because God does deal with each person individually, we are in complete agreement that He does not deal equally with each individual. The fact the He has predestined a minority of humanity for salvation aligns well with this view.

 

[Samson2021]

The alternative, which is born out by scripture, is that God, for reasons entirely known to Him alone, determined to save people. In His justice He has every reason and right to leave people to their destiny in the lake of fire. However, he has predestined a very small minority of humanity for eternal life with Him in heaven.

I was referring to this fitting with Eph 1:10-12 Not to mention Eph 2:14-16

 

[zoidar]

Your sins are forgiven at the cross. Thats what Paul said.

You said in your previous post forgiveness was the same thing as regeneration... or did I get you wrong?

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:14

I don't think Paul is refering to our personal sins, but the Ceremonial Law. The Law consisting of decrees against us were nailed to the cross at the crucifixion, not our personal sins.

Which isn’t a problem for an Omniscient God.

That's not really a good argument IMO. You can always support your position by saying God can do whatever He wants since He is Omniscient. Can you give an example from Scripture how God deals with people this way, punishing people for sins they have not yet committed?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was referring to this fitting with Eph 1:10-12 Not to mention Eph 2:14-16

Okay, so, once again, here is how it fits -

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

You said in your previous post forgiveness was the same thing as regeneration... or did I get you wrong?

You did. That’s why I underlined in your quote.” he made us alive.” That’s regeneration.

I don't think Paul is refering to our personal sins, but the Ceremonial Law. The Law consisting of decrees against us were nailed to the cross at the crucifixion, not our personal sins.

If that was the case, there would be no laws to follow, and so nobody would be guilty of any sin after the cross. Not to mention, we have the Ephesians 2 passage that goes along with this one.

That's not really a good argument IMO. You can always support your position by saying God can do whatever He wants since He is Omniscient. Can you give an example from Scripture how God deals with people this way, punishing people for sins they have not yet committed?

I didn’t say that God could do whatever he wants because he’s omniscient. I said he knows what our sins are, and could have his son bear the penalty for those sins because he’s omniscient and knows what those sins are.

 

[zoidar]

You did. That’s why I underlined in your quote.” he made us alive.” That’s regeneration.

Ok! So God forgave us at the cross, the most powerful thing in the whole universe and what happend to us? Absolutely nothing! What I guess you will say happens is God now sees us differently? But nothing really happened to us, we are still pigs in the mud? Forgiven pigs in the mud. Or is there something I'm missing?

I on the other hand believe when you are forgiven, you are washed clean, regenerated, made a child of God and all through the cross when you repent and believe.

If that was the case, there would be no laws to follow, and so nobody would be guilty of any sin after the cross. Not to mention, we have the Ephesians 2 passage that goes along with this one.

I don't understand your reasoning. Why would the cancellation of animal sacrifices, food laws, dress codes mean no one would be guilty of any sin?

I didn’t say that God could do whatever he wants because he’s omniscient. I said he knows what our sins are, and could have his son bear the penalty for those sins because he’s omniscient and knows what those sins are.

Ok, so God punished Jesus for sins that didn't exist yet, but He never deals with anyone else this way in Scripture. I think it makes it a very weak argument, possible yes, but weak non the less.