Propitiation

[Hammster]

Yes, that is true! In this case God uses our will or faith or repentance to accomplish our salvation. I wouldn't say repentance or faith are caused by something good from ourselves, but rather from something good God caused within us. Though, I wouldn't call it regeneration, but conviction. And you are free to disagree. No problem! It's just good to raise questions and concerns and think about what you believe.

You will still have to answer why a heart of stone would be convicted, and then do something good.

Yeah, ok! I wish I could say more about legal debt and moral dept. I have to think a lot more about it. The idea is quite new to me. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

 

[Hammster]

Thank you. You answered your own OP by quoting John 3:36 to my satisfaction. God's wrath does not abide on those "that believeth on the Son".

I know. But it does abide on those who don’t. So it’s safe to say that His wrath isn’t satisfied against all people. I’m glad we agree on something.

 

[bling]

I don't know if I think of forgiveness as a process. If you are forgiven a sin it's forgiven. It does however not mean we are always forgiven all sins at once. There might be some confession to be made.

I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.

This parable is not explained well by every commentary I’ve read.

Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce an immediate follow-up questions in the mines of the hearers, yet the apostles would be slow to ask Jesus, so what is on their hearts which? This parable is the follow-up answer to the question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

If I was there at this time, when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77, I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this also from going through this amount of money, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?

In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.

This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not even imagine hearing an unbelievable: “Your debt has been totally unconditionally forgiven”, so what did he hear?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again, since they still owe us for the last time.

These are teaching moments.

God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.

 

[Hammster]

Can we stay on topic?

 

[zoidar]

You will still have to answer why a heart of stone would be convicted, and then do something good.

Yes, that has to be answered. Won't do it here and now, trying to stay on topic. We probably get a chans to discuss this in the future.

 

[Samson2021]

All I wanted to say is it's strange if we are children of wrath and at the same time God's wrath has been appeased. I don't know how people deal with this issue. One way to understand it is to say God's wrath is appeased first when someone has repented and come to faith. Maybe I should start a thread just for this topic.

Your starting point is wrong. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, UNTO ALL and UPON ALL them that believe,
for there is no difference. Jesus told us to seek first the kingdom and Gods righteousness. That is the proper starting point.
Your righteousness is from God. Isa 54:17......their righteousness is of Me....... How so? It is the faith of the Son of God that was gifted to you
as the thing that allows you to believe from the heart and not just the head. Jesus' faith in and love of the Father were two things that were perfected along with obedience. Out of His abundance of these things have we all received. That is why the verse states "it is not of yourselves"
Gods grace could never be of us, it belongs to Him alone, but faith and love are of Jesus Christ of which we all receive when we are born of the spirit.

Notice in Rom 3:22 is clearly states that those who the faith is UPON are the believers, those to whom the faith is UNTO, ALL, are not as of yet.
It also tells us that the believer did not deserve it just as the unbeliever does not deserve it. So what did anyone do to earn it? Nothing, as it is
Gods choice of those He determined to be part of the first group unto the resurrection. Election according to grace.
1 Co 15:21-23 For since by man(Adam) came death, by man(Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But there is an order to this resurrection, Christ the first of the harvest, then those who are Christs at His coming..........

The wrath of God was satisfied when Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself. The price is paid for all past and future generations, we know
this for we know we have been purchased with a price and we are 2000 yrs after the crucifixion.
Most never understand, esp the unregenerate of this age, that evil in the world is necessary for the perfecting of the first fruits. Thus the main body of the worlds population does not enter into the becoming a son process, they are used to help perfect you, thus the wrath of God still
abides on the children of disobedience for your sake. Take Stephen as an example or even Jesus Himself, did they understand this when they
said Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do, or LAY NOT THIS SIN to their charge. This is what Paul labels the Mystery of Iniquity.
Also Rom 11:28 Concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sake......."

I ask you to look at Paul as the main example. Did Paul repent before or after His visitation? Obviously AFTER. And what did Paul say was GIVEN
to him 1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant in FAITH and LOVE which is in Christ Jesus.
NLT states "Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He FILLED ME WITH THE FAITH AND LOVE THAT COME FROM CHRIST JESUS".

"From His abundance have we all received"

This is what the believer was graced with. It just hasn't been given yet to those whom are not Gods elect at this present time.
Rom 11:25-26
Its not your faith and love that is being perfected in you, it is Jesus' faith in and love of the Father, that is the gift being perfected in you
by the renewing of your mind.

 

[Samson2021]

I would think so. Or some third way which would make it unjust for God to sentence anyone to hell, yet also unjust for admitting unbelievers into heaven.

What is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever? One has Faith upon him, the other has faith unto him. And neither
one deserves that faith. Rom 3:22
The one to whom the faith is upon has that by election according to grace. The one who does not is as Esau for now.(non elect)
And that is for the believers sake. Rom 11:28
We who have the faith UPON us now are the first of the fruits, according to Gods will. Jas 1:18

Your post above would lend itself to a look into Romans 9 about vessels to honor and dishonor and who chooses, then jump to Rom 11
and see what eventually happens to ALL Israel.

The biggest mistake that almost everyone makes is not understanding the TIMES, the time we are in now is the first thus first fruits.
The kingdom on the earth only lasts for 1000yrs but of the INCREASE of His government and peace there is no end? Isa 9:7
Why is the kingdom removed from the earth?

Jesus=Christ ruling with God.
Jesus + First fruits= bigger body of Christ(government) ruling with God. Oba 1:21 And saviors(first fruits) shall come up on Mt Zion
to judge the mount of Esau,(non elect in this time) and the kingdom shall be the Lords.
Jesus + First fruits + ? = even bigger body of Christ(government) ruling with God. To what end?

Where does it stop? According to Isa 9:7 it doesn't. How can we get there if this is the only TIME? Eph 1:10

I like that you are contemplating the thought that something is missing!

My point here is that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ bought justification unto life(spiritual) for everyone. Rom 5:18
And that will be testified in due time. 1 Ti 2:6
Only the true believer could even understand whats coming as the one who does not have the Holy Ghost is without a guide to
traverse the scripture. And even now most with the Holy Ghost have fallen back or never caught the vision as their minds were captured
by religion.

He paid the price for all period. When one will come into that knowledge of what was bought for them then they will actually have a choice
to make. He gave them power to become sons, there is a price to pay for those who are becoming. Thus the choices.
Lose your life, save it. Save your life ,lose it. Until the empowerment comes you are left in the mount of Esau. By Gods choice. Not anything
you did or did not do, exactly like Jacob and Esau, predetermined.

 

[Hammster]

What is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever? One has Faith upon him, the other has faith unto him. And neither
one deserves that faith. Rom 3:22
The one to whom the faith is upon has that by election according to grace. The one who does not is as Esau for now.(non elect)
And that is for the believers sake. Rom 11:28
We who have the faith UPON us now are the first of the fruits, according to Gods will. Jas 1:18

Your post above would lend itself to a look into Romans 9 about vessels to honor and dishonor and who chooses, then jump to Rom 11
and see what eventually happens to ALL Israel.

The biggest mistake that almost everyone makes is not understanding the TIMES, the time we are in now is the first thus first fruits.
The kingdom on the earth only lasts for 1000yrs but of the INCREASE of His government and peace there is no end? Isa 9:7
Why is the kingdom removed from the earth?

Jesus=Christ ruling with God.
Jesus + First fruits= bigger body of Christ(government) ruling with God. Oba 1:21 And saviors(first fruits) shall come up on Mt Zion
to judge the mount of Esau,(non elect in this time) and the kingdom shall be the Lords.
Jesus + First fruits + ? = even bigger body of Christ(government) ruling with God. To what end?

Where does it stop? According to Isa 9:7 it doesn't. How can we get there if this is the only TIME? Eph 1:10

I like that you are contemplating the thought that something is missing!

My point here is that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ bought justification unto life(spiritual) for everyone. Rom 5:18
And that will be testified in due time. 1 Ti 2:6
Only the true believer could even understand whats coming as the one who does not have the Holy Ghost is without a guide to
traverse the scripture. And even now most with the Holy Ghost have fallen back or never caught the vision as their minds were captured
by religion.

He paid the price for all period. When one will come into that knowledge of what was bought for them then they will actually have a choice
to make. He gave them power to become sons, there is a price to pay for those who are becoming. Thus the choices.
Lose your life, save it. Save your life ,lose it. Until the empowerment comes you are left in the mount of Esau. By Gods choice. Not anything
you did or did not do, exactly like Jacob and Esau, predetermined.

Theirs is too much error and the post is too long to respond to properly.

 

[Samson2021]

Theirs is too much error and the post is too long to respond to properly.

We can start with 1 Ti 2:6 Jesus Christ.........."Who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." How else can it be seen as
less than ALL?

 

[Samson2021]

1 Ti 1:15 For this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation; that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Considering that many(all-Jesus) were made sinners, whether by conception/birth or made like Adam and Eve, everyone other than
Jesus was made to be a sinner. Psa 51:5 NLT For I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me
Who was the word of God sent to save? Sinners. What does the word of God accomplish before it returns to God?
What it was sent to accomplish for it shall not return to Him void. Isa 55:11

 

[Hammster]

We can start with 1 Ti 2:6 Jesus Christ.........."Who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." How else can it be seen as
less than ALL?

Because “all” has more than one definition. And in the context, Paul is talking about types of people. So it’s not just for common folk, or kings and other authorities. Christ died for all types.

 

[Hammster]

1 Ti 1:15 For this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation; that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Considering that many(all-Jesus) were made sinners, whether by conception/birth or made like Adam and Eve, everyone other than
Jesus was made to be a sinner. Psa 51:5 NLT For I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me
Who was the word of God sent to save? Sinners. What does the word of God accomplish before it returns to God?
What it was sent to accomplish for it shall not return to Him void. Isa 55:11

That’s sounds an awful lot like universalism.

 

[Samson2021]

Because “all” has more than one definition. And in the context, Paul is talking about types of people. So it’s not just for common folk, or kings and other authorities. Christ died for all types.

Only if all is tied to something like all the apples, or all the trees etc..... in this case its ALL people. 1 Ti 2:1 ......to pray for ALL PEOPLE......

1 Ti 2:6 NLT He gave His life to purchase freedom for EVERYONE. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

Possibly a better understanding is imparted with the NLT?

And ALL types of people include ALL people.

 

[Samson2021]

In rightly dividing the word one must be aware of what initial salvation is, a starting point, and a gift.
Then the rest of it makes sense as to why you should do what you are commanded to do.
The crucifixion of your own carnal nature is what brings spiritual maturity, and without it you would not survive in a spiritual kingdom.
Like a premature birth.
The commands to do this or do that are for your perfecting, all we gotta do is be obedient and the transformation becomes a reality
day by day, then it gets easier as we have overcome some things, then more, then more etc...until your purge is accomplished.

Initial salvation- a gift
Working it out- becoming a son that is the spitting Image of His elder brother.

Can't confuse working out your own salvation with the initial gifting of salvation itself. For the gifts(initial salvation) and calling of God
are without repentance. He will never withdraw what He gave you. But now that you have received it work it out.

 

[Hammster]

Only if all is tied to something like all the apples, or all the trees etc..... in this case its ALL people. 1 Ti 2:1 ......to pray for ALL PEOPLE......

1 Ti 2:6 NLT He gave His life to purchase freedom for EVERYONE. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

Possibly a better understanding is imparted with the NLT?

And ALL types of people include ALL people.

No, all types doesn’t include all people. That doesn’t even make sense.

 

[Samson2021]

No, all types doesn’t include all people. That doesn’t even make sense.

1 Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

What human is not a sinner?

 

[zoidar]

No, all types doesn’t include all people. That doesn’t even make sense.

Doesn't the group of kings include all kings? Who would be the kings we are not to pray for?

 

[Hammster]

1 Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

What human is not a sinner?

He only needs to save two for this statement to be true.

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't the group of kings include all kings? Who would be the kings we are not to pray for?

Pray for them all.

 

[Samson2021]

He only needs to save two for this statement to be true.

I could agree if it were not for:

1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so In Christ SHALL ALL be made alive." But EVERY ONE in his own order............

One of the strangest things about theology is that somehow they think that a Father (God) is producing souls from spirits found within
Himself and sending them to earth to somehow choose Him and if they do not He will take revenge on those He made lower than the
Angels, and placed a carnal mind in each of them to boot. Go figure.
No man would do that to His own children. Maybe abandon, but not roast in eternity. I think that kind of thinking is impugning the
Fathers honor, but thats just me.