Propitiation

[o_mlly]

They are a sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Sorry, I don't think I understand that reply as an answer to the questions I posed. Could you elaborate?

Are all humans unregenerate at birth and unable to hear His voice? If so then how does one become able to hear His voice?

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, I don't think I understand that reply as an answer to the questions I posed. Could you elaborate?

You are born either a sheep or a goat. If you are a sheep, you will hear His voice through the gospel message, you’ll repent of your sins and follow Him. If you are a goat, you’ll follow your nature and reject the gospel message.

 

[o_mlly]

You are born either a sheep or a goat. If you are a sheep, you will hear His voice through the gospel message, you’ll repent of your sins and follow Him. If you are a goat, you’ll follow your nature and reject the gospel message.

Does that mean that God predestines all human beings at birth to heaven or hell?

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

If I have the above correct then how does predestination square with your OP?

 

[Hammster]

Does that mean that God predestines all human beings at birth to heaven or hell?

If I have the above correct then how does predestination square with your OP?

It squared because if Christ died for the goats in that same way He died for the sheep, ie satisfied God’s wrath against sin, it would be unjust for God to send anyone to hell because there would be no reason to punish them.

 

[o_mlly]

It squared because if Christ died for the goats in that same way He died for the sheep, ie satisfied God’s wrath against sin, it would be unjust for God to send anyone to hell because there would be no reason to punish them.

I'm not sure I understand the conditional/consequent italicized above. Logically, the truth value of a conditional is the same as its contrapositive:

If it would not be unjust for God to send some to hell then Christ did not die for the goats.

Seems to read, "All goats (unregenerate) go to hell". Do I have that right?

 

[Hammster]

I'm not sure I understand the conditional/consequent italicized above. Logically, the truth value of a conditional is the same as its contrapositive:

If it would not be unjust for God to send some to hell then Christ did not die for the goats.

Seems to read, "All goats (unregenerate) go to hell". Do I have that right?

Yes. See Matthew 25.

 

[o_mlly]

See Matthew 25.

Could you cite the verses that support your OP?

 

[zoidar]

We are forgiven of all sin at the cross (we are clean). But our daily sin still affects us in our walk. So we need to go to Jesus to have our feet washed. This is sanctification.

I have a problem with this, and that is it means we are clean even before we have faith, which from my POV makes faith meaningless from the standpoint of salvation. The only reason for faith seems to be for sanctification.

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks for the reply.

Are the goats, unregenerated human beings, able on their own to come to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and thereby self-generate?

Nobody is able on their own to come to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and thereby self-generate, for as Ephesians teaches, even the very faith with which a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ is a gift from God and comes by His grace (or undeserved favour):

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

 

[Hammster]

Could you cite the verses that support your OP?

That passage doesn’t support the OP. It does support goats going to hell, though.

 

[Hammster]

I have a problem with this, and that is it means we are clean even before we have faith, which from my POV makes faith meaningless from the standpoint of salvation. The only reason for faith seems to be for sanctification.

Not really. We are still made righteous by faith. Having no sin against us does not make us righteous. It just means that there’s nothing negative against us. We still need to be justified.

 

[o_mlly]

That passage doesn’t support the OP. It does support goats going to hell, though.

Do I have your position correct?

• All unregenerate go to hell.
• One is born regenerate or unregenerate as God wills it.
• The unregenerate can do nothing to cause their regeneration.

 

[Hammster]

Do I have your position correct?

• All unregenerate go to hell.

Yes

• One is born regenerate or unregenerate as God wills it.

No. All are born unregenerate.

• The unregenerate can do nothing to cause their regeneration.

Yes.

 

[o_mlly]

Yes

No. All are born unregenerate.

Yes.

Thanks again for the clarification.

If all are born unregenerate and can do nothing to cause regeneration then how does the transformation to become regenerate happen?

 

[Hammster]

Thanks again for the clarification.

If all are born unregenerate and can do nothing to cause regeneration then how does the transformation to become regenerate happen?

At whatever time God chooses it to happen, it happens.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

 

[o_mlly]

At whatever time God chooses it to happen, it happens.

Does God, therefore, choose some to regenerate and not choose so for others?

 

[zoidar]

Not really. We are still made righteous by faith. Having no sin against us does not make us righteous. It just means that there’s nothing negative against us. We still need to be justified.

What is it faith does to the person that makes him righteous?

My view is we are clean first when we have faith. So the person is righteous by faith since he is made clean.

 

[Hammster]

Does God, therefore, choose some to regenerate and not choose so for others?

Yes, that’s correct.

 

[Hammster]

What is it faith does to the person that makes him righteous?

My view is we are clean first when we have faith. So the person is righteous by faith since he is made clean.

But being clean doesn’t make one righteous. It just means that there’s no basis for hell. We need positive righteousness to be worthy of glory.

 

[o_mlly]

Yes, that’s correct.

But the belief that God wills some and not others to regenerate does not align with 1 Tim 2:3-6.

King James Version​

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.