Propitiation

fhansen · Jul 7, 2024

Hammster said:
Except that it’s not.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

Other translations ensure that we understand that the rebirth is of God, for those who believe.

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." NIV

Hammster · Jul 7, 2024

fhansen said:
Other translations ensure that we understand that the rebirth is of God, for those who believe.

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." NIV

they were children born not of human decision. It’s right there.

And John says in other places

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
— John 6:39

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

The Father gives to the Son.

fhansen · Jul 7, 2024

Hammster said:
they were children born not of human decision. It’s right there.

And John says in other places

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
— John 6:39

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

The Father gives to the Son.

He's contrasting physical and spiritual rebirth; we don't birth ourselves as in physical birth, rebirth is a completely supernatural event. But the event doesn't happen unless and until we believe, and faith is both a gift- and a choice to accept it.

And from man's perspective, it doesn't matter so much that Jesus will lose none of His since we can't know who they are. So we simply do our best with what gifts we have been given, faith, love, works, whatever, striving, responding to the Spirit's promptings, making effort to please Him, to make our calling and election sure. Fortunately, most Christians live their life that way regardless of theologies

Hammster · Jul 7, 2024

fhansen said:
He's contrasting physical and spiritual rebirth; we don't birth ourselves as in physical birth, rebirth is a completely supernatural event. But the event doesn't happen unless and until we believe, and faith is both a gift- and a choice to accept it.

And from man's perspective, it doesn't matter so much that Jesus will lose none of His since we can't know who they are. So we simply do our best with what gifts we have been given, faith, love works, whatever, striving, making effort to please Him, to make our calling and election sure. Fortunately, most Christians live their life that way regardless of theologies

He compares, not contrasts.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
— John 3:6-8

As an infant doesn’t know about being born, we don’t about being born again.

fhansen · Jul 7, 2024

Hammster said:
He compares, not contrasts.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
— John 3:6-8

As an infant doesn’t know about being born, we don’t about being born again.

We don't know much about heaven either and yet we do know something of both heaven and hell, by the good and the evil that we experience here. And so we already begin to look for and seek the good. Then when Jesus presents it to us in definitive terms, we recognize it, that something good, that something better. And we're moved to that treasure because our innate desire is for Goodness to begin with. But we aren't forced to.

And that's why He came, that's why we need the information that He gives us, that's why all the drama that we live in and experience in this world. Otherwise there's no reason to show us anything, for us to experience anything, if it's all decided and done for us. But this world is set up the way it is and revelation is given for the very purpose of our being able to decide, for providing the material to make our choice.

Hammster · Jul 7, 2024

fhansen said:
We don't know much about heaven either and yet we do know something of both heaven and hell, by the good and the evil that we experience here. And so we already begin to look for and seek the good. Then when Jesus presents it to us in definitive terms, we recognize it, that something good, that something better. And we're moved to that treasure because our innate desire is for Goodness to begin with. But we aren't forced to.

And that's why He came, that's why we need the information that He gives us, that's why all the drama that we live in and experience in this world. Otherwise there's no reason to show us anything, for us to experience anything, if it's all decided and done for us. But this world is set up the way it is and revelation is given for the very purpose of our being able to decide, for providing the material to make our choice.

Please show where it says anywhere that it is actually set up for us to decide. I’ve just posted passages that say it’s not our decision. So I’m looking forward to your information.

fhansen · Jul 7, 2024

Hammster said:
Please show where it says anywhere that it is actually set up for us to decide. I’ve just posted passages that say it’s not our decision. So I’m looking forward to your information.

It's so self-evident that the question shouldn't even need to be asked. Instruction is only given to those who might put it into practice. Either way, contingencies are all over:

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Matt 7

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Matt 7

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matt 11

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Rev 3

"Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" Deut 30

That directive hasn't changed a bit with the new covenant.

o_mlly · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
The regenerate man will [disobey God] because of his flesh. But the regenerate is under God’s care. He will be pruned as a fruit-producing branch is pruned. He will be cared for as a sheep is cared for by the shepherd.

Seems as though you believe that all and only the baptized will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

fhansen said:
It's so self-evident that the question shouldn't even need to be asked.

I’m sorry I’m so stupid.

fhansen said:
Instruction is only given to those who might put it into practice. Either way, contingencies are all over:

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Matt 7

The sheep hear, the goats do not.

fhansen said:
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Matt 7

The sheep ask, seek, and knock. His sheep hear His voice, remember.

fhansen said:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matt 11

Who hears this? His sheep.

fhansen said:
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19

Your argument, then, is if we keep the commandments, we don’t need Jesus.

fhansen said:
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Rev 3

That’s actually written to a church. It’s not about individual salvation.

fhansen said:
"Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15

Those who bear fruit get pruned. Those who don’t were never saved. Fruit is used throughout scripture as evidence of being saved.

fhansen said:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

I’ll have to assume that you believe we make ourselves holy. Otherwise I don’t see why this was included.

fhansen said:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Sheep do those things because they hear Him and follow.

fhansen said:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

You forgot this part.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
— Romans 8:9-11

fhansen said:
"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" Deut 30

If the nation followed, they were blessed. We obviously see that they didn’t.

fhansen said:
That directive hasn't changed a bit with the new covenant.

Sure. Except that Christ is our blessing and He took our curse.

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
Seems as though you believe that all and only the baptized will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

No, because I never mentioned baptism. I’m not even sure how you drew that conclusion.

o_mlly · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
No, because I never mentioned baptism. I’m not even sure how you drew that conclusion.

My error.

Seems as though you believe that all and only the regenerated will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

Also, please explain who is and is not regenerated and how regeneration is accomplished?

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
My error.

Seems as though you believe that all and only the regenerated will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

Also, please explain who is and is not regenerated and how regeneration is accomplished?

The regenerate are those who are born again. That is what is meant by born again. Those who have passed from death to life. As to how,

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

o_mlly · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
The regenerate are those who are born again. That is what is meant by born again. Those who have passed from death to life. As to how,

Which were born ... of God.

Who is not born of God? Who has not passed from death to life? How does one pass from death to life?

Also, please comment on my assessment of your position: Seems as though you believe that all and only the regenerated will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
Who is not born of God?

The goats.

o_mlly said:
Who has not passed from death to life?

The goats.

o_mlly said:
How does one pass from death to life?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
— Romans 10:9-11

o_mlly said:
Also, please comment on my assessment of your position: Seems as though you believe that all and only the regenerated will universally be saved. Is that a fair assessment?

That is what Jesus said. So yes, it’s a fair assessment.

zoidar · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
Sure it can.

Thanks for acknowledging that!

Hammster said:
But that doesn’t mean it’s a good translation.

True ...

Hammster said:
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
— John 13:10

Don't know exactly what this verse has to do with it.

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

zoidar said:
Don't know exactly what this verse has to do with it.

We are forgiven of all sin at the cross (we are clean). But our daily sin still affects us in our walk. So we need to go to Jesus to have our feet washed. This is sanctification.

o_mlly · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
The goats.

The goats.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
— Romans 10:9-11

Thanks for the reply.

Are the goats, unregenerated human beings, able on their own to come to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and thereby self-generate?

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
Thanks for the reply.

Are the goats, unregenerated human beings, able on their own to come to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and thereby self-generate?

They don’t belong to Christ and will never hear His voice.

o_mlly · Jul 8, 2024

Hammster said:
They don’t belong to Christ and will never hear His voice.

Are all humans unregenerate at birth and unable to hear His voice? If so then how does one become able to hear His voice?

Hammster · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
Are all humans unregenerate at birth and unable to hear His voice? If so then how does one become able to hear His voice?

They are a sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Propitiation

Oldbie

Carpe Chaos

Oldbie

Carpe Chaos

Oldbie

Carpe Chaos

Oldbie

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Carpe Chaos

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Carpe Chaos

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Carpe Chaos

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Carpe Chaos

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Carpe Chaos

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency