Propitiation

bling said:

We as God's offspring means we would start out as children of God, but turning to willingly follow satan as our master means we loss our child status.

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Even when the "prodigal son" left, turned away, went out into the world and squandered everything, did he lose his "child status"?

justbyfaith said:

Hello @Butch5,

Who is to say that punishing Christ in our stead doesn't mean God is just (you)? He did it so that mercy and justice could come together. A song was written, Justice and mercy meet at the Cross.

Now if God satisfies His justice by sending Christ to die in our place so that He can give us mercy and still be just, then your naysaying does not change the fact that God's justice is satisfied in the Cross.

Jesus dying in our place is an integral part of the good news of the Bible. To believe that God satisfied His justice in the Cross so that He could show mercy is an essential belief to our Christianity.

The word "propitiation" means "an appeasement of wrath or justice". And it is clear from scripture that the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the propitiation for our sins.

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I realize Butch has done a good job addressing you question and post but I am not in full agreement with Him on a few things.

The whole idea of have our Loving God torture, humiliate and intentionally murder a willing innocent being (deity and human) is revolting. Some try and say God is doing it to Himself from their understanding of the trinity, but what kind of person intentionally publicly does that to themselves for self-seeking reasons?

Scripture talks about wicked people torturing, humiliating and murdering Christ and not God doing it. Just because God willed Christ to go to the cross does not mean he personally wanted Christ go to the cross any more than Christ wanted to personally go to the cross.

We can understand our need to be punished or disciplined for our personal sins against God, but that does not mean just punishing anyone will satisfy justice or God.

You seem to be saying God is in need of propitiation to satisfy some need God has which when met will allow God to forgive, but the problem is with man and not God’s ability to forgive.

You become upset with your own children, but it never means you do not Love them and will not forgive them. You just want them to stop misbehaving, so what can you do to help resolve their problem and what should they experience to help them stop misbehaving and also have a stronger relationship with their father. Just consider how it is done:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

amariselle said:

Sure, but I wasn't talking about getting involved in the occult or Satanism.

In any case, Jesus promises to never "cast out" anyone who comes to Him.(John 6:37)

Matthew 7:7-11

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The Lord is not going to be at fault in anyway for Christian who leave Him because He does not cast anyone out, but that does not mean some will not leave of their own accord?

bling said:

The Lord is not going to be at fault in anyway for Christian who leave Him because He does not cast anyone out, but that does not mean some will not leave of their own accord?

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Depends what you mean by "leave", however. Some believe that you "leave" God every single time you sin, for instance.

amariselle said:

Even when the "prodigal son" left, turned away, went out into the world and squandered everything, did he lose his "child status"?

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As you say, he is still the offspring of the father, but that young man in big time sin is not the son the father raised. We are all an offspring of the Father, but if we do not act like His child and act like the child of satan we or the children of whom we obey.

amariselle said:

Depends what you mean by "leave", however. Some believe that you "leave" God every single time you sin, for instance.

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There are sins unto death. It is the act of selling or giving your birthright to heaven away like Esau sold his birthright.

bling said:

As you say, he is still the offspring of the father, but that young man in big time sin is not the son the father raised. We are all an offspring of the Father, but if we do not act like His child and act like the child of satan we or the children of whom we obey.

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Was the father willing to take his son back? Or had he disowned him completely?

bling said:

There are sins unto death. It is the act of selling or giving your birthright to heaven away like Esau sold his birthright.

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The "sin unto death" is rejecting Christ and His sacrifice for sin, because there is no more sacrifice for sin, and no other Name given among men by which we can be saved.

amariselle said:

Was the father willing to take his son back? Or had he disowned him completely?

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The father like God the father, will only accept "back" the child within a person who is humbly willing to accept pure charity. That rebellious disobedient son who virtually told his father: "I wish you were dead with "I want my inheritance now, did not return to the father, but the child of the father did come back.

amariselle said:

The "sin unto death" is rejecting Christ and His sacrifice for sin, because there is no more sacrifice for sin, and no other Name given among men by which we can be saved.

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OK

amariselle said:

Depends what you mean by "leave", however. Some believe that you "leave" God every single time you sin, for instance.

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Very good observation. Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup (virtually just gave it away) and we can do the same with our birthright to a home in heaven, but that comes after we reach the point of giving no value to Godly type Love and really do not want to be where there is only Godly type love. Our birthright cannot be stolen, lost (like we loss our keys), paid for, paid back for getting and even God will not take it back, but it can be given away to satan.
Eternal life is a gift given to you that you personally own, but being yours personally you can do what you want with it, but no one can take it.

justbyfaith said:

I stand by my assertion that the OP is sound doctrine.

You say that it did not come about until the 11th century and therefore originated with Anselm and not God.

By that reasoning the doctrine of the Trinity did not origInate from God but with the Nicene council in the 3rd or 4th century.

You want to reject the preaching that God's justice is satisfied so that He can show mercy, through the Cross, that is on you. See 1 Corinthians 1:21. God saves those who believe through preaching.

Maybe you should ask God to give you justice rather than mercy on your day of judgment.

If you don't believe that God's jusice is satisified in the Cross so that He can show mercy, you are very likely to get justice without mercy because in your theology God's justice is not satisfied and therefore if God is going to be just in His dealings towards you (and He IS just), He cannot show mercy to you. Justice requires that you receive the full penalty for your sins; and it is indeed an attribute of our Lord. So in order for you to get mercy (the full penalty for your sins not being paid by you), the penalty must be paid by someone else. Fortunately, God stepped up to the plate and did this for us, WHICH WILL BE APPLIED TO YOU IF YOU WILL RECEIVE IT. But if you don't believe it how can you receive it?

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There is no getting around the fact “God is Just” and “God is merciful” so we will all be judged by a just God who will justly provide mercy. It is not an either/or situation.

Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder on the cross would in no way personally please God who would be in total empathy with Christ. The torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent to allow the guilty to go free are totally unjust so how would it satisfy God’s justice.

The problem is not trying to fulfill some unique strange requirement only God would have to change God so He can now forgive.

Making God out to be the problem with some warped sense of justice does not satisfy our problem and it is our problem needing to become justly resolved and not God’s problem.

What does it take for a rebellious disobedient child who has hurt his parents to become comfortable standing next to that parent (feeling “justified” in being next to his parent). A Loving parent can easily forgive the child but this is not the first and only time this child has been disobedient so what else is needed?

Being Lovingly, fairly, justly discipline of the parent with the parent participating with the child and the child correctly accepting that Loving discipline will allow the child to put the disobedience behind them, realize the Love of the parent, know the significance of the offence, and draw closer to the parent.

A child who accepts just discipline will not have to be severely punished, so the discipline can be equal (just) to the punishment of those who refuse to be disciplined.

Christ crucifixion allows us now the opportunity of being crucified with Christ and not Christ being crucified instead of us. The torture, humiliation and murder of us on a cross is fair/just disciplining (translated many times in scripture as “punishment”), so we do not need to be punished to be justified.

justbyfaith said:

Yes, God is both just and merciful.

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justbyfaith said:

Nevertheless these two attributes of God contradict each other in the way they would be meted out, apart from the Cross.

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That may happen with your doctrine or theology, but not with my understanding. God is wise enough and powerful enough to resolve any apparent contradiction.

justbyfaith said:

Suppose you were a murderer and God is required to mete out a just punishment to you. Such a punishment would be the death penalty according to scripture (Genesis 9:5-6). Now God wants to show you mercy and merely give you life in prison. But He cannot do that because His justice requires the death penalty.

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There is no cosmic “Law” out there which God did not write with full foreknowledge of what could happen, so His “law” is totally perfect every exception is taken into consideration and not like the “laws” man have written.

God’s Law took into consideration God’s desire to be merciful and was written with mercy.

justbyfaith said:

Enter the Cross. Jesus died in our place so that you don't have to receive the death penalty. It is theologically called the substitution (so at this point I am not merely trying to teach one who opposes himself but to bring the truth to the onlookers as well).

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“For” does not have to mean “instead of” or “in our place” and of the 1000+ times “for” is used in scripture I never see it needing to be translated “instead of”. Can you give me an example beside when you think it is talking about the crucifixion?

justbyfaith said:

The substitution means that Jesus died in the place of the one who deserved the death penalty for their sins. The wages of sin is death. He died in our place so that God could be both merciful and just, not only in His heart, but in His practice towards humankind. He can show you mercy and still be just because He Himself paid the penalty which should have been exacted upon you.

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“Penal Substitution” (PS) is never fair or just even when the one being tortures agrees to the torturing.

PS makes God out to have the problem needing something in order to forgive people.

PS has God responsible/cause for the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ.

PS loses all the benefit that comes from disciplining/punishing the guilty

PS does not explain why atonement would not be universal.

If God is Love, how could God have a problem forgiving people? The reason given for “penal substitution” is God cannot forgive us without Jesus being our substitute, but that makes God out to having a problem, lacking in Love someway, and really being almost blood thirsty.

justbyfaith said:

I think you have a problem with understanding it because death is in the equation. If I owed a fine of a million dollars and someone else offered to pay the fine, I do not say that it is unjust of them to pay the fine for me. If I do, I may indeed be rejecting their offer of paying my fine and I will have to pay the fine myself. And if I cannot pay it something worse will happen to me, I will be thrown into debtor's prison with my wife and children until the equivalent of a million dollars in suffering has been exacted from me.

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This just creates another huge issue: You say Christ paid the “fine” completely 100%, so we owe nothing, yet we also know God forgave our sins 100%, so we owe nothing. To suggest both are needed by God makes God’s forgiveness much less or totally insignificant or it makes Christ’s payment to God virtually not needed or of little significance. The answer given is “Will that is just the way it is”? (Totally illogical and yet the cross is something we really need to understand).

justbyfaith said:

Yes we are crucified with Christ; but this refers not to paying the penalty for my sins but rather to the death to my flesh that takes place so that I can live the Christian life!

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Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If Christ had not been crucified you would loss the benefit of being crucified with Christ so what would be your loss?

Do you feel any “pain” with being crucified with Christ?

When do you experience this crucifixion and how often?

Look at Acts 2 because Peter gives the first Christian “Christ crucified” sermon to nonbelievers and in it he never mentions Christ going to the cross as their replacement, but does talk about them Crucifying the Lord and Messiah (Acts 2:36). 3000 realized what they had done and experience the most painful feeling they could experience and live with a death blow to their heart. In that sever pain they cry out with their last breath “What can we do!” , which is what we want to hear from every nonbeliever. So did the cross for those 3000 help them to turn their lives around (repent)? Did they hear or see Christ’s death as helping God out to forgive them or did they experience God’s disciplining of their sin and see Christ’s crucifixion creating an even greater need for God’s forgiveness (Love/charity/grace/mercy).

Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder were hugely significant in the conversion of those 3000 on the day of Pentecost, so can we say it directly helped those 3000 for Christ to be crucified?

justbyfaith said:

So then, Jesus died in our place so that the sinner can receive mercy; and in the case of the murderer he does not even have to receive life in prison from the eternal perspective. The blood of Jesus was shed in order that we might receive forgiveness (Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14 KJV)

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Eph. 1: 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Col. 1: 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Forgiveness comes with atonement and the blood is the cleansing factor for us, but it is not saying it is given to God. Anything done in obedience to God can be offered up to god as worship, like giving gifts to the needy is worship to God but the gift itself goes to the needy.

justbyfaith said:

God is indeed wise enough to resolve any apparent contradiction...what makes you think He did not do it visibly through the Cross?

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Are you saying God creates the problem of needing the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ to forgive people and so does just that?

Because if that is what you are saying: God is an extremely poor planner or definer of “justice”, since He could easily have set it up for Him to just forgive without the personal need of having Christ go to the cross. “Justice” has to be redefined to have the judge torture, humiliate and murder the innocent to allow the guilty to go free, when there is no justice problem for the judge to just forgive.

justbyfaith said:

Hi @bling,

Sorry I have taken so long to respond. My computer is having problems and I had to wait until I could use a different computer before responding.

I am saying that justice requires that the wages of sin is death. So then because I have sinned God requires my death in order to pay the penalty for my sin. But God does not want to show justice to me more than He wants to show mercy. Justice requires death though so He cannot show mercy because justice requires death as the penalty for sin.

Enter the Cross. God Himself became a Man and took upon Himself the penalty for my sin.

This is the epitome of the gospel; if you do not believe this you cannot be saved.

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The context for “wages of sin is death” is the following:

Ro. 6:16… you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.


21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “wage from sin” is contrasted with the gift from God of eternal life, so is this talking about physical death or spiritual death (separation from God)?

At one time all these Christians were all slaves to sin leading to death, so was that separation from God?

In the context of Ro. 6 there is nothing said about Christ paying the price or wage for our sin instead of us, but it talks about “…4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death…”

just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his

our old self was crucified with him

if we died with Christ…we will also live with him

count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life

The move from death to life: is not the result of Christ taking our place in death, but is the result of our dying with Christ to sin. We have to experience personally a death like Christ’s death to truly have life.

The person changing their obedience is what allows them to get out of death (separation from God) and able to accept the gift of eternal life from God.