Proof???!!!!!

[KCfromNC]

Almost. Mostly, since most religious define God as being beyond the laws of this existence, I feel they've effectively defended themselves against arguments of the "God violates the universe" type. (Isn't it nasty how they try to define all the terms so as to make rational debate impossible?) How do you get past this quandary?

You get around it by not playing into the theists' game. They're attempting to carve out a special set of nonsensical claims that are somehow more deserving of consideration than the rest of them. They want you to place nonsensical and contradictory claims about gods into a different category than equally nonsensical and contradictory stories about fairies, Santa Claus, elves, talking rabbits, and so on. They hope that by calling the nonsense "god" that you'll somehow give it a special deference that you don't apply to other fairy tales and magic.

That's part of the problem you're having with understanding strong atheism. No one makes a distinction between weak a-Santa Clausists and strong a-Santa Clausists because everyone knows that Santa contradicts the laws of physics. But change it to god, and suddenly you have to worry that maybe it does exist, even though it contradicts itself, the known laws of physics, and everything we've ever observed about the universe. It's a great bit of social engineering to make this happen, but in the end it's really just special pleading.

 

[DeathMagus]

You get around it by not playing into the theists' game. They're attempting to carve out a special set of nonsensical claims that are somehow more deserving of consideration than the rest of them. They want you to place nonsensical and contradictory claims about gods into a different category than equally nonsensical and contradictory stories about fairies, Santa Claus, elves, talking rabbits, and so on. They hope that by calling the nonsense "god" that you'll somehow give it a special deference that you don't apply to other fairy tales and magic.

That's part of the problem you're having with understanding strong atheism. No one makes a distinction between weak a-Santa Clausists and strong a-Santa Clausists because everyone knows that Santa contradicts the laws of physics. But change it to god, and suddenly you have to worry that maybe it does exist, even though it contradicts itself, the known laws of physics, and everything we've ever observed about the universe. It's a great bit of social engineering to make this happen, but in the end it's really just special pleading.

True. A very good point.

 

[Gary51]

What does having children have to do with the existence or non-existence of any deity?

If you have children have you ever told them about Santa?

 

[Chalnoth]

If you have children have you ever told them about Santa?

I don't yet have children, and I don't yet know whether or not I would lie to them about Santa. But seriously, what in the world does this have to do with god?

 

[consol]

You get around it by not playing into the theists' game. They're attempting to carve out a special set of nonsensical claims that are somehow more deserving of consideration than the rest of them. They want you to place nonsensical and contradictory claims about gods into a different category than equally nonsensical and contradictory stories about fairies, Santa Claus, elves, talking rabbits, and so on. They hope that by calling the nonsense "god" that you'll somehow give it a special deference that you don't apply to other fairy tales and magic.

That's part of the problem you're having with understanding strong atheism. No one makes a distinction between weak a-Santa Clausists and strong a-Santa Clausists because everyone knows that Santa contradicts the laws of physics. But change it to god, and suddenly you have to worry that maybe it does exist, even though it contradicts itself, the known laws of physics, and everything we've ever observed about the universe. It's a great bit of social engineering to make this happen, but in the end it's really just special pleading.

It's not only true, it's very true, and it sums up why religion should not be treated as a special case,
it's just another fairy tale, and we should treat it as such.

 

[tanzanos]

Most hate is due to religion. So religion is the number one culprit for the number one hate factor on this planet. Hmmm!!!

Can I sue God? Any good lawyers out there?

 

[TheOutsider]

You only believe in chaos and confusion.... Now we're getting somewhere... you have admitted to being confused. That is the first step in ridding you mind of the chaos in it.

It may take you some time... but at least you have realised your problem.

May Eris touch you one day and show you the Truth about CHAOS!.

 

[Vene]

You only believe in chaos and confusion.... Now we're getting somewhere... you have admitted to being confused. That is the first step in ridding you mind of the chaos in it.

It may take you some time... but at least you have realised your problem.

May Eris touch you one day and show you the Truth about CHAOS!.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Chaos is nothing to be feared, it's a part of life and should be embraced.
Hail Discordia!

 

[DrkSdBls]

Most hate is due to religion. So religion is the number one culprit for the number one hate factor on this planet. Hmmm!!!

Can I sue God? Any good lawyers out there?

That'll do no good. God wins every case with only a word.

Just ask Satan. Why do you think he has never been able to win a fight with him, despite having all the Laywers.

 

[Vene]

That'll do no good. God wins every case with only a word.

Just ask Satan. Why do you think he has never been able to win a fight with him, despite having all the Laywers.

Does anybody know how this turned out?

 

[TheOutsider]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Chaos is nothing to be feared, it's a part of life and should be embraced.
Hail Discordia!

Not to go off on a rant, but this is one of the main problems I had with Christianity. Not only is it hostile to the idea of CHAOS, but most Christians act like CHAOS doesn't even exist!! How many times have you heard one of them say "Everything happens for a reason" or "God's got a plan" or "It's all a part of His Plan"? They want everything to be tied up in a nice neat package. They want to believe that there is someone in charge out there, when it's simply not true. CHAOS happens! Randomness happens! Just look at Brownian motion if you don't believe me. Can you seriously tell me that God is deciding exactly how each and every particle in the universe is moving?

Hail Eris!

 

[Carey]

One day all atheists will believe in God.

Yes

The day after the 1000 years end s. But we hope to help them believe prior to that day.

Revelations 20 : 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,

Revelations 20 :

 

[Chalnoth]

Yes

The day after the 1000 years end s. But we hope to help them believe prior to that day.

See, the funny thing is, we clearly and explicitly lay out what we would need to believe:

1. A definition of God that is non-contradictory and provides specific, testable predictions as to what we should expect if said deity existed. These predictions must stem naturally from the definition of the deity and
2. Those predictions are confirmed.

The problem is, nobody seems to be capable of doing either thing, so why should we believe? If you want to throw out the whole heaven/hell canard, the response is obvious: how do you know you're right and the Muslims and the Jews are wrong? What about all the other religions? If I believe in yours, after all, and another religion is correct, I'd be dooming myself to hell just as certainly. So why shouldn't we wait for evidence if it's just a crapshoot otherwise?

 

[Carey]

See, the funny thing is, we clearly and explicitly lay out what we would need to believe:

1. A definition of God that is non-contradictory and provides specific, testable predictions as to what we should expect if said deity existed. These predictions must stem naturally from the definition of the deity and
2. Those predictions are confirmed.

The problem is, nobody seems to be capable of doing either thing, so why should we believe? If you want to throw out the whole heaven/hell canard, the response is obvious: how do you know you're right and the Muslims and the Jews are wrong? What about all the other religions? If I believe in yours, after all, and another religion is correct, I'd be dooming myself to hell just as certainly. So why shouldn't we wait for evidence if it's just a crapshoot otherwise?

Well if you believe in the science that pretty much proves the existence of a creator. That is the first step.

Then you would need maybe to do as I did and study all the major religions and most of the other smaller ones.

Then try to prove anything wrong in them. The Bible never contradicts itself and has never been proven wrong by me or anyone else.

This is how I know which Holy Book to follow.

I personally am not religious but label myself Christian for lack of a better term.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Well if you believe in the science that pretty much proves the existence of a creator. That is the first step.

There is no science that "pretty much proves the existence of a creator". At best, all of the so-called scientific evidence for God is simply pointing to gaps in human knowledge (i.e. "we don't know X") then plugging the gap by arbitrarily invoking a diety.

The problem is, of course, the very fact that the nature of a diety is outside of science.

 

[Carey]

There is no science that "pretty much proves the existence of a creator". At best, all of the so-called scientific evidence for God is simply pointing to gaps in human knowledge (i.e. "we don't know X") then plugging the gap by arbitrarily invoking a diety.

The problem is, of course, the very fact that the nature of a diety is outside of science.

Here is the 20 % of an article I am allowed to post. and its site.

There are many many more on this topic if you want to research and learn the truth.

http://www.evolution-vs-creation.net/dna-evolution.html

DNA Evolution - As scientists explore a new universe—the universe inside the cell—they are making startling discoveries of information systems more complex than anything ever devised by humanity's best minds. How did they get there, and what does it mean for the theory of evolution?


It was in 1953 that James Watson and Francis Crick achieved what appeared impossible—discovering the genetic structure deep inside the nucleus of our cells. We call this genetic material DNA, an abbreviation for deoxyribonucleic acid.
The discovery of the double-helix structure of the DNA molecule opened the floodgates for scientists to examine the code embedded within it. Now, more than half a century after the initial discovery, the DNA code has been deciphered—although many of its elements are still not well understood.

What has been found has profound implications regarding Darwinian evolution, the theory taught in schools all over the world that all living beings have evolved by natural processes through mutation and natural selection.​

Amazing revelations about DNA evolution
As scientists began to decode the human DNA molecule, they found something quite unexpected—an exquisite 'language' composed of some 3 billion genetic letters. "One of the most extraordinary discoveries of the twentieth century," says Dr. Stephen Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute in Seattle, Wash., "was that DNA actually stores information—the detailed instructions for assembling proteins—in the form of a four-character digital code" (quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case for a Creator, 2004, p. 224).
It is hard to fathom, but the amount of information in human DNA is roughly equivalent to 12 sets of The Encyclopaedia Britannica—an incredible 384 volumes" worth of detailed information that would fill 48 feet of library shelves!
Yet in their actual size—which is only two millionths of a millimeter thick—a teaspoon of DNA, according to molecular biologist Michael Denton, could contain all the information needed to build the proteins for all the species of organisms that have ever lived on the earth, and "there would still be enough room left for all the information in every book ever written" (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1996, p. 334).
Who or what could miniaturize such information and place this enormous number of 'letters' in their proper sequence as a genetic instruction manual? Could evolution have gradually come up with a system like this?
DNA contains a genetic language
Let's first consider some of the characteristics of this genetic 'language.' For it to be rightly called a language, it must contain the following elements: an alphabet or coding system, correct spelling, grammar (a proper arrangement of the words), meaning (semantics) and an intended purpose.
Scientists have found the genetic code has all of these key elements. "The coding regions of DNA," explains Dr. Stephen Meyer, "have exactly the same relevant properties as a computer code or language" (quoted by Strobel, p. 237, emphasis in original).
The only other codes found to be true languages are all of human origin. Although we do find that dogs bark when they perceive danger, bees dance to point other bees to a source and whales emit sounds, to name a few examples of other species" communication, none of these have the composition of a language. They are only considered low-level communication signals.
The only types of communication considered high-level are human languages, artificial languages such as computer and Morse codes and the genetic code. No other communication system has been found to contain the basic characteristics of a language.
Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, commented that "DNA is like a software program, only much more complex than anything we've ever devised."

Can you imagine something more intricate​

 

[consol]

Here is the 20 % of an article I am allowed to post. and its site.

There are many many more on this topic if you want to research and learn the truth.

http://www.evolution-vs-creation.net/dna-evolution.html

DNA Evolution - As scientists explore a new universe—the universe inside the cell—they are making startling discoveries of information systems more complex than anything ever devised by humanity's best minds. How did they get there, and what does it mean for the theory of evolution?


It was in 1953 that James Watson and Francis Crick achieved what appeared impossible—discovering the genetic structure deep inside the nucleus of our cells. We call this genetic material DNA, an abbreviation for deoxyribonucleic acid.


The discovery of the double-helix structure of the DNA molecule opened the floodgates for scientists to examine the code embedded within it. Now, more than half a century after the initial discovery, the DNA code has been deciphered—although many of its elements are still not well understood.

What has been found has profound implications regarding Darwinian evolution, the theory taught in schools all over the world that all living beings have evolved by natural processes through mutation and natural selection.​

Amazing revelations about DNA evolution
As scientists began to decode the human DNA molecule, they found something quite unexpected—an exquisite 'language' composed of some 3 billion genetic letters. "One of the most extraordinary discoveries of the twentieth century," says Dr. Stephen Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute in Seattle, Wash., "was that DNA actually stores information—the detailed instructions for assembling proteins—in the form of a four-character digital code" (quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case for a Creator, 2004, p. 224).
It is hard to fathom, but the amount of information in human DNA is roughly equivalent to 12 sets of The Encyclopaedia Britannica—an incredible 384 volumes" worth of detailed information that would fill 48 feet of library shelves!
Yet in their actual size—which is only two millionths of a millimeter thick—a teaspoon of DNA, according to molecular biologist Michael Denton, could contain all the information needed to build the proteins for all the species of organisms that have ever lived on the earth, and "there would still be enough room left for all the information in every book ever written" (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1996, p. 334).
Who or what could miniaturize such information and place this enormous number of 'letters' in their proper sequence as a genetic instruction manual? Could evolution have gradually come up with a system like this?
DNA contains a genetic language
Let's first consider some of the characteristics of this genetic 'language.' For it to be rightly called a language, it must contain the following elements: an alphabet or coding system, correct spelling, grammar (a proper arrangement of the words), meaning (semantics) and an intended purpose.
Scientists have found the genetic code has all of these key elements. "The coding regions of DNA," explains Dr. Stephen Meyer, "have exactly the same relevant properties as a computer code or language" (quoted by Strobel, p. 237, emphasis in original).
The only other codes found to be true languages are all of human origin. Although we do find that dogs bark when they perceive danger, bees dance to point other bees to a source and whales emit sounds, to name a few examples of other species" communication, none of these have the composition of a language. They are only considered low-level communication signals.
The only types of communication considered high-level are human languages, artificial languages such as computer and Morse codes and the genetic code. No other communication system has been found to contain the basic characteristics of a language.

Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, commented that "DNA is like a software program, only much more complex than anything we've ever devised."

Can you imagine something more intricate​

How sad is all that rubbish? it's beginning to get out of hand, there is just no way to get through to them.

You can almost hear their little brains ticking over,
Life is so very very complicated I don't know what to do, I know, what we need is a God,
if we had a God we wouldn't need to try and understand anything, just say God made it, and leave it at that,
yes that's what we can do, I feel much better now knowing we have a God we can point to when we don't understand something.

It has just got to be a sickness that's passed from generation to generation.

 

[Chalnoth]

Well if you believe in the science that pretty much proves the existence of a creator. That is the first step.

How, precisely? You're going to need to do one heck of a lot more to convince me than simply claim it is so.

And, by the way, I am a scientist (specifically, cosmologist), and I have yet to see any evidence that is even mildly suggestive of the existence of any deity.

Then try to prove anything wrong in them. The Bible never contradicts itself and has never been proven wrong by me or anyone else.

If this was GA, I'd call you to task on this. But I'll just let it drop for now.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well if you believe in the science that pretty much proves the existence of a creator. That is the first step.

Simply stating this doesn't make it so. Elaborate on this 'proof'.

Then you would need maybe to do as I did and study all the major religions and most of the other smaller ones.

Then try to prove anything wrong in them. The Bible never contradicts itself and has never been proven wrong by me or anyone else.

This is how I know which Holy Book to follow.

I personally am not religious but label myself Christian for lack of a better term.

So because the Bible is consistent, it must therefore be true? Rubbish.

And for the record, there are contradictions in the Bible. The following table is a comparison of the contradictions between the four accounts of when Jesus was found to be missing from his tomb:

That is, Matthew says: "Two women went at sunrise to the tomb, and saw one angel outside the closed tomb"
Compare with Mark, who says the same thing, but this time it's three women, the angel is now a human sitting inside the open tomb.

 

[DrkSdBls]

Not to go off on a rant, but this is one of the main problems I had with Christianity. Not only is it hostile to the idea of CHAOS, but most Christians act like CHAOS doesn't even exist!! How many times have you heard one of them say "Everything happens for a reason" or "God's got a plan" or "It's all a part of His Plan"? They want everything to be tied up in a nice neat package. They want to believe that there is someone in charge out there, when it's simply not true. CHAOS happens! Randomness happens! Just look at Brownian motion if you don't believe me. Can you seriously tell me that God is deciding exactly how each and every particle in the universe is moving?

Hail Eris!

There is no "Reason" to the Universe, but there is a Rhythm and Rhyme to it.

I'm sorry to be the one to brake it to ya but there is no such thing as "True Chaos."