Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Phil W]

When Paul wrote "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" in Eph 4:30 and "stop quenching the Holy Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19, where those believer's thought based on "love and helping", or something else?

That isn't what my bible says.
Mine says not to do it in the first place.
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)

As for the "doubts" of Rom.14:23...The message is aimed at the unbeliever.
If they have doubts about something allowed by the Body, he is not of the Body.

 

[Phil W]

Every Christian I know says they still sin. I actually took a poll here on CF about the subject and out of I think 65 people only 2 or 3 said they never sin.

They must imagine there is sin in Christ.
As the church is the body of Christ, and "we" are the church...how can we be in Christ with sin in/on us?
Can't happen.

When we doubt or worry we are not trusting in God. I sometimes struggle in this in times of financial problems or when I’m not getting many hours at work. I start to worry about being able to pay my bills and provide for my family. But God always comes thru for us.

God loves His children, and Jesus promised us that He would never leave us or forsake us.
His word should be good enough to alleviate "doubt".

I sinned just last Saturday when an oncoming vehicle started coming into my lane and I shouted “sh@$ lady!!”. It wasn’t intentional to shout at her it was just a reaction as I was trying to swerve over to avoid hitting her. I was right next to a guardrail and couldn’t swerve over but a few inches. I’m at least greatful that my windows were rolled up so she wasn’t able to hear me. Even tho I’m a devoted servant of Christ I was still able to stumble in sin. Granted it was unintentional but still a sin none the less.

Make a study of "cussing".
Find every verse that pertains to naughtyness, speaketh, tongue, communication, speakings, mouth, lips...etc.
I used a concordance to search out these and more words in an attempt to bridle my tongue.
Study of the word of God is like putting on armor.
And what an example you set for your kids!
If you have no concordance, you can access "bible gateway.com", and just type in a word to find the pertinent scripture.
I hope there are other sites that provide the same service.

BTW, all sin is intentional...according to James 1:14-15.
No lust, no sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
When Paul wrote "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" in Eph 4:30 and "stop quenching the Holy Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19, where those believer's thought based on "love and helping", or something else?

That isn't what my bible says.
Mine says not to do it in the first place.

Actually, your Bible says the same thing as my Bible. In the Greek, the command means to "stop it".

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)

Stop grieving the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They must imagine there is sin in Christ.
As the church is the body of Christ, and "we" are the church...how can we be in Christ with sin in/on us?
Can't happen.


God loves His children, and Jesus promised us that He would never leave us or forsake us.
His word should be good enough to alleviate "doubt".


Make a study of "cussing".
Find every verse that pertains to naughtyness, speaketh, tongue, communication, speakings, mouth, lips...etc.
I used a concordance to search out these and more words in an attempt to bridle my tongue.
Study of the word of God is like putting on armor.
And what an example you set for your kids!
If you have no concordance, you can access "bible gateway.com", and just type in a word to find the pertinent scripture.
I hope there are other sites that provide the same service.

BTW, all sin is intentional...according to James 1:14-15.
No lust, no sin.

I NEVER curse, it was an involuntary reaction out of fear not a retaliation in anger. It was NOT intentional, it happened immediately upon seeing the oncoming car cross into my lane not afterwards. My children know that I don’t curse and I do set a very good example for them.

“But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.”
‭‭JAMES‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You have no discernment when it comes to interpreting scriptures. James is talking about temptation and having a desire (lust) to sin. Was I tempted to sin when I shouted out in fear for my family’s life in the spurt of the moment Did I desire to say the curse word? No there was no preconceived thought at all. It happened in a fraction of a second. James 1:14-15 doesn’t apply to the situation because he clearly says “one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (desire).

 

[Phil W]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
When Paul wrote "stop grieving the Holy Spirit" in Eph 4:30 and "stop quenching the Holy Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19, where those believer's thought based on "love and helping", or something else?

Actually, your Bible says the same thing as my Bible. In the Greek, the command means to "stop it".

Stop grieving the Holy Spirit.

The end result of either interpretation is a Spirit that is not grieved.

 

[Phil W]

I NEVER curse, it was an involuntary reaction out of fear not a retaliation in anger. It was NOT intentional, it happened immediately upon seeing the oncoming car cross into my lane not afterwards. My children know that I don’t curse and I do set a very good example for them.

How can you say that after just posting that you did?

“But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.”
‭‭JAMES‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You have no discernment when it comes to interpreting scriptures. James is talking about temptation and having a desire (lust) to sin. Was I tempted to sin when I shouted out in fear for my family’s life in the spurt of the moment Did I desire to say the curse word? No there was no preconceived thought at all. It happened in a fraction of a second. James 1:14-15 doesn’t apply to the situation because he clearly says “one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (desire).

That is exactly the message I was trying to get across to you.
Do the study, and find out how much less you end up "speaking without thinking".
It is written..."Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:" (James 1:9)

 

[FreeGrace2]

The end result of either interpretation is a Spirit that is not grieved.

I think you missed my point. It seemed your position was that believers don't grieve the Spirit. If I missed something, please advise.

 

[Phil W]

I think you missed my point. It seemed your position was that believers don't grieve the Spirit. If I missed something, please advise.

No, you got that right.
What befuddles me is that you think believers do grieve the Spirit.
What exactly do those people think?
Certainly not thankful for deliverance from sin. (Rom 6:7)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I think you missed my point. It seemed your position was that believers don't grieve the Spirit. If I missed something, please advise.

No, you got that right.
What befuddles me is that you think believers do grieve the Spirit.

What's to befuddle? The Bible is clear; believers are commanded to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Further, Eph 5:18 is a command to follow: be filled with the Spirit.

Do you know how one is filled with the Spirit? I'm not talking about being indwell. That occurs at the moment that one believes in Christ. God gives His Spirit to the believer.

Gal 2:3, 5
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Now, back to being filled with the Spirit. The fact that believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, proves that believers are not always filled with the Spirit.

The Bible never commands believers to be indwell, because that automatically occurs as an action from God.

But the filling is a command for believers to obey.

So, how does a believer obey this command?

Further, when a believer isn't filled with the Spirit, what happened to cause that?

What exactly do those people think?

Again, Scripture tells us.

Rom 8:5 - Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

Phil 3:19 - Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

Col 3:1,2
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

Certainly not thankful for deliverance from sin. (Rom 6:7)

Correct. That's why believers have commands to obey. To stay on track.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I accepted God's gift of repentance, and consider my "turn from" sin permanent.

If your "turn from" sin is permanent, then why does the Bible command believers to repent of their sins?

The only time believers cannot sin is when they are filled with the Holy Spirit. But this is not a permanent condition, not by a long shot. In fact, believers are commanded, as I have already said, to be filled with the Spirit.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

This verse doesn't teach sinless perfection, but rather, the issue of how a believer will NOT sin. The words "born of God" refers specifically to the believer's regeneration, whereby they become a "new creature" per 2 Cor 5:17.

iow, a believer cannot sin from his new, born again nature. But the believer must function from that nature for that to be true.

All believers still have their sinful nature, which creates tension and conflict for the believer, as Paul noted in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

So, now the believer has 2 natures; the sinful nature he/she was born with, and a new nature, where the indwelling Holy Spirit resides.

Only when the believer is obeying the command to be filled (influenced) with the Holy Spirit will the believer NOT sin.

However, when the believer is not filled with the Spirit, they are said to be carnal, fleshly, and are also out of fellowship with the Lord. In this state, they are grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit and are in sin.

So, what's the answer to the dilemma of sin? Again, the Bible provides us the answer:

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Since the subject of 1 John 1 is about fellowship (mentioned 4 times), it should be obvious that confession of sins is requisite to being in fellowship with the Lord.

So confession of sin begins the process. But since the command to be filled is specific and is clearly God's will for the believer, we look to the Bible for more guidance.

1 John 5:14,15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Quick question: does God hear the believer who is out of fellowship and grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit?

Again, Scripture gives us the answer.

Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

This is why the believer must confess their sins first.

Then directly ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit. This is how to submit or yield to the Holy Spirit.

For this, I received the gift of the Holy Ghost, Comforter, seal of the inheritance, and the mind of Christ.
And I give God the glory, for His immeasurable grace.

Yet, believers have to follow the directions in the Bible in order to be cleansed from our sins and have fellowship restored, and then to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Phil W]

What's to befuddle? The Bible is clear; believers are commanded to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Not in my bible.
In the KJV we are told "grieve not the Spirit".
Don't do "this".

Further, Eph 5:18 is a command to follow: be filled with the Spirit.
Do you know how one is filled with the Spirit? I'm not talking about being indwell. That occurs at the moment that one believes in Christ. God gives His Spirit to the believer.

If "indwelt" you mean, given the gift of the Holy Ghost, that happens after a true "turn from" sin. (Acts 2:38)
Otherwise, I do know folks filled with the Holy Spirit, as I see them as the same thing.

Gal 2:3, 5
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Now, back to being filled with the Spirit. The fact that believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, proves that believers are not always filled with the Spirit.

If they are believers, they are always filled with the Holy Spirit...as God isn't sharing His new temple with any other kind of spirit.

The Bible never commands believers to be indwell, because that automatically occurs as an action from God.
But the filling is a command for believers to obey.

Semantics.
As the Holy Spirit is given by God, we can't force "more" Holy Spirit out of God.

So, how does a believer obey this command?

He doesn't let anything evil in.

Further, when a believer isn't filled with the Spirit, what happened to cause that?

They manifested that their repentance from sin was a lie. They are walking in the darkness instead of in the light.
They manifested that they were not reborn of Godly seed, and that they were still children of the devil.

 

[Phil W]

If your "turn from" sin is permanent, then why does the Bible command believers to repent of their sins?

Folks who still need to "turn from" sin have yet to repent of sin.
They are not believers

The only time believers cannot sin is when they are filled with the Holy Spirit. But this is not a permanent condition, not by a long shot. In fact, believers are commanded, as I have already said, to be filled with the Spirit.

You are describing a Christianity without Christ.
We are the body of Christ, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.
There is no sin in Christ.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
This verse doesn't teach sinless perfection, but rather, the issue of how a believer will NOT sin. The words "born of God" refers specifically to the believer's regeneration, whereby they become a "new creature" per 2 Cor 5:17.

It does teach "sinless perfection.
Or are you trying to say that grape vines CAN bring forth figs?
That which is born of God cannot bear wicked fruit.

iow, a believer cannot sin from his new, born again nature. But the believer must function from that nature for that to be true.

I hope it is true for you, as it is for me.

All believers still have their sinful nature, which creates tension and conflict for the believer, as Paul noted in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

You may have misunderstood part of that scripture.
As you noted earlier, we have a new nature.
So walk in that new nature and the old, now dead nature, will never be made evident.

So, now the believer has 2 natures; the sinful nature he/she was born with, and a new nature, where the indwelling Holy Spirit resides.

Not so !
My old self was killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
I am a new creature now, and "old things have passed away and ALL THINGS are become new." {2 Cor 5:17)

The rest of your post builds on the sands of false Christianity and the on again off again personas of false believers.
Walk in the light/God, or walk in the darkness/sin.
Make a choice and stick to it.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Since the subject of 1 John 1 is about fellowship (mentioned 4 times), it should be obvious that confession of sins is requisite to being in fellowship with the Lord.

I will address this though...
As for 1 John 1...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have confessed and had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not in my bible.
In the KJV we are told "grieve not the Spirit".
Don't do "this".

Didn't you read my prior post about this? The Greek is an emphatic "STOP it" command.

Not a "don't start" kind of suggestion.

If "indwelt" you mean, given the gift of the Holy Ghost, that happens after a true "turn from" sin. (Acts 2:38)

Not a current situation. The Holy Spirit was given only to Jews upon belief. And since the crowd DID believe that they made a mistake and that Jesus WAS the Son of God and Messiah, they needed to be baptized.

Recall that Gentiles didn't receive the Holy Spirit until sometime later. Acts 10.

Otherwise, I do know folks filled with the Holy Spirit, as I see them as the same thing.

Did you miss Gal 3:2 and 5? Paul was clear about WHEN believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's NOT from a so-called "turn from sin". It's WHEN one believes.

If they are believers, they are always filled with the Holy Spirit...as God isn't sharing His new temple with any other kind of spirit.

Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained.

Semantics.
As the Holy Spirit is given by God, we can't force "more" Holy Spirit out of God.

Whatever does this mean?

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"

He doesn't let anything evil in.

I didn't say He did. And your comment didn't answer my question. Do you have an answer?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Folks who still need to "turn from" sin have yet to repent of sin.
They are not believers

Where do you get this kind of idea? A believer is one who believes what Jesus says about Himself; that He is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and that He gives eternal life to those who believe in (trust) Him for salvation.

I said:
"The only time believers cannot sin is when they are filled with the Holy Spirit. But this is not a permanent condition, not by a long shot. In fact, believers are commanded, as I have already said, to be filled with the Spirit."

You are describing a Christianity without Christ.
We are the body of Christ, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.
There is no sin in Christ.

It appears you have ignored all the verses I've shared with you. Even Paul struggled with his sin nature. Rom 6 and 7.

It does teach "sinless perfection.

Your opinion is noted. Now read 1 John 2:2.

Or are you trying to say that grape vines CAN bring forth figs?

No such thing.

That which is born of God cannot bear wicked fruit.

That was my point. When a believer lives or functions from their NEW REGENERATED nature, which means filled with the Spirit, they CAN'T sin.

It seems you're not able to follow any of my explanations.

I hope it is true for you, as it is for me.

Like I said, it's only true when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit (living from the NEW REGENERATED nature.

You may have misunderstood part of that scripture.

If so, then please explain exactly how I have, and what is the correct understanding.

As you noted earlier, we have a new nature.

I did indeed. Do you think your sinful nature, the one you were born with, somehow left you when you believed?

So walk in that new nature and the old, now dead nature, will never be made evident.

OK, so explain how, exactly, does one "walk in that new nature"? Do you know?

Not so !
My old self was killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

I see you have misunderstood this passage. Paul was clear about his point.

v.3-7 is about the believer's position as being no longer under the judgment of sin.

If the old self (sin nature) has been killed, and is gone, then why did Paul continue in ch 6 and write this:

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

I count 3 commands (in red) about not sinning, and 2 commands (in blue) about what to do instead.

Or, consider v.15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

I hope you see the clear possibility of sinning. Or v.15 makes no sense.

And don't forget v.16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Here, Paul notes the choices believers have, as to whom to "offer ourselves as obedient slaves. Either "slaves to sin", or "slaves to obedience."

I am a new creature now, and "old things have passed away and ALL THINGS are become new." {2 Cor 5:17)

Don't kid yourself. You still have your sin nature. Paul was clear.

The rest of your post builds on the sands of false Christianity and the on again off again personas of false believers.

It seems pretty obvious to me that you have no clue about how to live the Christian life.

Walk in the light/God, or walk in the darkness/sin.
Make a choice and stick to it.

There it is. A choice. Just as Paul said. The Christian life is not a life of automatic obedience, being filled with the Spirit. It seems you believe that.

I will address this though...
As for 1 John 1...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.

Sure. That is 3 John, but not 1 John.

Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have confessed and had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.

And that is momentary, not permanent. Go back to Romans 6 and learn the lessons from Paul.

 

[Phil W]

Didn't you read my prior post about this? The Greek is an emphatic "STOP it" command.
Not a "don't start" kind of suggestion.

I wonder why the scriptures don't say "Quit grieving the Spirit"? Or "Cease from..."
I actually looked up the word "grieve" in my concordance and find no indication of "stop grieving" anything.
All this aside, it is clear that we are not to grieve the Spirit.
Whether the hearer, reader, has been grieving the Spirit or not it is clear the behavior should not be part of a believers life.

Not a current situation. The Holy Spirit was given only to Jews upon belief.

Actually, it was given to those whose turn from sin is genuine.

And since the crowd DID believe that they made a mistake and that Jesus WAS the Son of God and Messiah, they needed to be baptized.
Recall that Gentiles didn't receive the Holy Spirit until sometime later. Acts 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are referring to the "baptism" of the Holy Ghost...which I consider the gift of the Holy Ghost spoken of by Peter in Acts 2:38.

Did you miss Gal 3:2 and 5? Paul was clear about WHEN believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's NOT from a so-called "turn from sin". It's WHEN one believes.

I gotta ask...Do you think a true believer would refuse to turn from sin?
Belief is manifested BY repentance...a turn from sin.

Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained.

Your POV doesn't hold true for those of Samaria, or the twelve at Ephesus.

Whatever does this mean?

You wrote..."

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"

I didn't say He did. And your comment didn't answer my question. Do you have an answer?[/QUOTE]

 

[Phil W]

Didn't you read my prior post about this? The Greek is an emphatic "STOP it" command.
Not a "don't start" kind of suggestion.

I wonder why the scriptures don't say "Quit grieving the Spirit"? Or "Cease from..."
I actually looked up the word "grieve" in my concordance and find no indication of "stop grieving" anything.
All this aside, it is clear that we are not to grieve the the Spirit.

Not a current situation. The Holy Spirit was given only to Jews upon belief. And since the crowd DID believe that they made a mistake and that Jesus WAS the Son of God and Messiah, they needed to be baptized.
Recall that Gentiles didn't receive the Holy Spirit until sometime later. Acts 10.

That POV doesn't hold true for the Samaritans or the twelve at Ephesus.

Did you miss Gal 3:2 and 5? Paul was clear about WHEN believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's NOT from a so-called "turn from sin". It's WHEN one believes.

Don't you feel that real believers turn from sin?

Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained.

If they sin they weren't believers.
They doubted the scriptures, (these days), and the words of our Lord and His apostles in the early days of Christianity.
Sin is idolatry, which means he who commits a sin has elevated something else above God.
Does that sound like a believer to you?
Not to me.

Whatever does this mean?

You wrote..."The Bible never commands believers to be indwell, because that automatically occurs as an action from God.
But the filling is a command for believers to obey."
I replied..."Semantics.
As the Holy Spirit is given by God, we can't force "more" Holy Spirit out of God."
How can we "obey a command" that isn't in our power to procure?

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"

I think you are referring to YOUR POV that "The filling is a command..."
Show me where one is commanded to be either indwelt or receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It sure would be easier to correspond with you if you would "bracket" the words of mine that you are answering.

 

[Phil W]

Where do you get this kind of idea? A believer is one who believes what Jesus says about Himself; that He is the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and that He gives eternal life to those who believe in (trust) Him for salvation.

Knowing what our Redeemer went through for us, do you think that believer would continue to offend God?
I don't.

I said:
"The only time believers cannot sin is when they are filled with the Holy Spirit. But this is not a permanent condition, not by a long shot. In fact, believers are commanded, as I have already said, to be filled with the Spirit."

Believers are always filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Those without the Spirit are rebellious haters of God. (Matt 6:24)

It appears you have ignored all the verses I've shared with you. Even Paul struggled with his sin nature. Rom 6 and 7.

Paul's "struggles" in Rom 7 are his memories of his prior life in the flesh.

Your opinion is noted. Now read 1 John 2:2.

I sure am glad that Advocate was available to me when I was still a sinner.
In fact, that Advocate is still available to all who will love God above all else and their neighbor as themselves.
Posers can forget about it though.

That was my point. When a believer lives or functions from their NEW REGENERATED nature, which means filled with the Spirit, they CAN'T sin.

Which is all the time, if the old nature was killed along with the flesh at water baptism. (Rom 6:3-7)

It seems you're not able to follow any of my explanations.
Like I said, it's only true when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit (living from the NEW REGENERATED nature.

I don't believe the doctrine of "split personalities".
You have either killed the old man and been born again...of Godly seed, or you have not.

If so, then please explain exactly how I have, and what is the correct understanding.

Re. Gal 5...
If ones perspective is as of one in the flesh, he will continue to lust/fight against the Spirit.
But those who are in the Spirit realize the flesh has no bearing on our new lives in Christ.
There fight is to keep the flesh dead.
The flesh hold nothing but death for me, one walking in the Spirit..

I did indeed. Do you think your sinful nature, the one you were born with, somehow left you when you believed?

Yes, I do.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
My sin nature is part of the old creature.
It has passed away...thanks be to God.

OK, so explain how, exactly, does one "walk in that new nature"? Do you know?

He remains faithful to God and His Son Jesus Christ.
I do know.


I see you have misunderstood this passage. Paul was clear about his point.
v.3-7 is about the believer's position as being no longer under the judgment of sin.
If the old self (sin nature) has been killed, and is gone, then why did Paul continue in ch 6 and write this:
Romans 6;11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.[/QUOTE]
He is explaining how to proceed in the new life given us after we have killed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

I count 3 commands (in red) about not sinning, and 2 commands (in blue) about what to do instead.

So "do instead"!

Or, consider v.15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
I hope you see the clear possibility of sinning. Or v.15 makes no sense.
And don't forget v.16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Here, Paul notes the choices believers have, as to whom to "offer ourselves as obedient slaves. Either "slaves to sin", or "slaves to obedience."
Don't kid yourself. You still have your sin nature. Paul was clear.

It is getting pretty clear that you are trying to make me return to drugs, sex, idolatry, etc., but I'll have none of it.
I am a new creature, with a new nature, have killed all the old about me, and am now walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
I will continue to walk in the light, because I found the darkness to be only death.

It seems pretty obvious to me that you have no clue about how to live the Christian life.
There it is. A choice. Just as Paul said. The Christian life is not a life of automatic obedience, being filled with the Spirit. It seems you believe that.

Does being reborn of God's seed have anything to do with "Christian life"?
As grape vines cannot bear figs, neither can God's seed bear wickedness.

My "choice" is to rejoice in He who freed me from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Instead of replying to 3 separate posts by Phil W, I'm going to reply to comment from all 3 posts.

Phil said:

I wonder why the scriptures don't say "Quit grieving the Spirit"? Or "Cease from..."
I actually looked up the word "grieve" in my concordance and find no indication of "stop grieving" anything.
All this aside, it is clear that we are not to grieve the Spirit.
Whether the hearer, reader, has been grieving the Spirit or not it is clear the behavior should not be part of a believers life.

How come you didn't do your research. It isn't the word "grieve" that I was pointing out. It was the negative command in "do not". In the Greek, it means to STOP IT!!

I gotta ask...Do you think a true believer would refuse to turn from sin?
Belief is manifested BY repentance...a turn from sin.

I believe this is rather naive. The Bible says that Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized". Do you believe the Bible? And then read what he tried to do and what Peter told him.

I said:
"Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained."

Your POV doesn't hold true for those of Samaria, or the twelve at Ephesus.

When making a contrary point, please back up your claim with evidence. If my poverties doesn't "hold true", then please explain WHY it doesn't.

Just making a claim doesn't advance the discussion in any way.

If you can't back up your claim from Scripture, then refrain from the claim.

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"
You replied:

I didn't say He did. And your comment didn't answer my question. Do you have an answer?

Go ahead and repeat your question. I must have missed it. And then please answer HOW does a believer obey the command to be filled witht the Spirit, from Eph 5:18.

I said:
"Did you miss Gal 3:2 and 5? Paul was clear about WHEN believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's NOT from a so-called "turn from sin". It's WHEN one believes."

Don't you feel that real believers turn from sin?

It seems you completely missed or ignored my point. And I don't see how your question relates in any way to my comments.

I said:
"Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained."
You replied:

If they sin they weren't believers.
They doubted the scriptures, (these days), and the words of our Lord and His apostles in the early days of Christianity.
Sin is idolatry, which means he who commits a sin has elevated something else above God.

Again my comments were completely ignored or missed. Can you please at least address my points? It seems you would rather talk over me than to me.

And you cannot support your first sentence from Scripture.

Does that sound like a believer to you?
Not to me.

It seems you are unfamiliar with what the Bible says TO believers about lifestyle then.

You wrote..."The Bible never commands believers to be indwell, because that automatically occurs as an action from God.
But the filling is a command for believers to obey."

I replied..."Semantics.
As the Holy Spirit is given by God, we can't force "more" Holy Spirit out of God."
How can we "obey a command" that isn't in our power to procure?

Are you kidding !!?? "semantics"??

I gave you what God's Word says. And you come back with "semantics". Amazing. That may be a whole lot of the problem with your views. Seems you are just not willing to face what the Scriptures actually say, so you hide behind "semantics".

It seems you think the Holy Spirit is given in "measures" or something like that. Where do you get your ideas from? Certainly not the Bible.

The Holy Spirit can't be divided up, as you insinuate. When God gives the believer the Holy Spirit, He gets all of Him. At the moment of faith in Christ. Gal 3:2,5.

And your final question makes no sense. When a command is given, it is EXPECTED to be obeyed. What were you thinking?

Do you really think that God gives the believer commands that he can't obey? That makes no sense.

What is clear is that you have shown no clue as to how a believer is filled with the Spirit, and why God has commanded believers to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit. All of which is directly related to the believer's spiritual life, or not.

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"
You replied:

I think you are referring to YOUR POV that "The filling is a command..."

If you had read what I posted, you would have seen Eph 5:18, which is a command to be filled with the Holy Spirit. So my POV is exactly the same as the Bible's.

Show me where one is commanded to be either indwelt or receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I never said believers are commanded to be indwell with the Spirit or receive the gift of the Spirit. I think you are confused by what being filled means. Obviously.

I have shown you the direct command to be filled with the Spirit, and you have ignored it completely. Showing that you do not know how to be filled.

It sure would be easier to correspond with you if you would "bracket" the words of mine that you are answering.

ps: I always include your comments in quotes.

Knowing what our Redeemer went through for us, do you think that believer would continue to offend God?
I don't.

And this shows your unfamiliarity with Scripture.

There is Simon the sorcerer, Ananias and Sapphira of Acts 5, the incestuous believer in 1 Cor 5, and on and on.

Believers are always filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No. Eph 5:18 is a direct command to be filled with the Spirit.

Believers are always indwelt with the Spirit, but it shows that you don't understand the difference.

The Holy Spirit is the Power Source for living the Christian life according to the Bible.

Only when we are "plugged in" by being filled with the Spirit are we living the Christian life, in God's power.

When a believer is grieving/quenching the Spirit, they are out of fellowship, and living from their own will power and cann't please God.

Why not? This is what the Bible says about our own righteousnesses:
Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

In case you don't know what "filthy rags" means in the Hebrew, it means "used menstrual rags".

Without the power of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing we can do that pleases God. We are as offensive to Him as used menstrual rags would be to us.

Paul's "struggles" in Rom 7 are his memories of his prior life in the flesh.

I suggest you pay attention to the PRESENT TENSES in Rom 7 in order to realize that Pail was talking about his present life, not some past life memories.

If that doesn't convince you, consider 1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Again, notice the PRESENT TENSE in Paul's words.

I said:
"It seems you're not able to follow any of my explanations.
Like I said, it's only true when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit (living from the NEW REGENERATED nature."
You replied:

I don't believe the doctrine of "split personalities".

How silly. But would you claim the same thing about our Lord, who was fully human and fully divine? How is that not a "split personality", and having a human nature (the one we're born with) and a new nature is?

It seems we'll never get on the same page. You have a lot of misunderstandings of Scripture. And it doesn't seem there is any willingness to learn what the Bible says. In spite of all the verses I've shared that support my comments and points.

 

[Phil W]

I NEVER curse, it was an involuntary reaction out of fear not a retaliation in anger. It was NOT intentional, it happened immediately upon seeing the oncoming car cross into my lane not afterwards. My children know that I don’t curse and I do set a very good example for them.

“But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.”
‭‭JAMES‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You have no discernment when it comes to interpreting scriptures. James is talking about temptation and having a desire (lust) to sin. Was I tempted to sin when I shouted out in fear for my family’s life in the spurt of the moment Did I desire to say the curse word? No there was no preconceived thought at all. It happened in a fraction of a second. James 1:14-15 doesn’t apply to the situation because he clearly says “one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (desire).

You never cursed...but you cursed...?
Quit it with this line!
Stop using this example, and realize...as I think you have, that this was not a sin.
Study and pray that this never occurs again.

 

[Phil W]

Instead of replying to 3 separate posts by Phil W, I'm going to reply to comment from all 3 posts.

Phil said:

How come you didn't do your research. It isn't the word "grieve" that I was pointing out. It was the negative command in "do not". In the Greek, it means to STOP IT!!


I believe this is rather naive. The Bible says that Simon the sorcerer "believed and was baptized". Do you believe the Bible? And then read what he tried to do and what Peter told him.

I said:
"Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained."

When making a contrary point, please back up your claim with evidence. If my poverties doesn't "hold true", then please explain WHY it doesn't.

Just making a claim doesn't advance the discussion in any way.

If you can't back up your claim from Scripture, then refrain from the claim.

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"
You replied:

Go ahead and repeat your question. I must have missed it. And then please answer HOW does a believer obey the command to be filled witht the Spirit, from Eph 5:18.

I said:
"Did you miss Gal 3:2 and 5? Paul was clear about WHEN believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's NOT from a so-called "turn from sin". It's WHEN one believes."

It seems you completely missed or ignored my point. And I don't see how your question relates in any way to my comments.

I said:
"Every believer begins indwelt and filled with the Spirit. But the moment one sins, the Holy Spirit is grieved/quenched and the believer is in carnality. They need to confess their sin and ask for the filling, as I previously explained."
You replied:

Again my comments were completely ignored or missed. Can you please at least address my points? It seems you would rather talk over me than to me.

And you cannot support your first sentence from Scripture.


It seems you are unfamiliar with what the Bible says TO believers about lifestyle then.


Are you kidding !!?? "semantics"??

I gave you what God's Word says. And you come back with "semantics". Amazing. That may be a whole lot of the problem with your views. Seems you are just not willing to face what the Scriptures actually say, so you hide behind "semantics".

It seems you think the Holy Spirit is given in "measures" or something like that. Where do you get your ideas from? Certainly not the Bible.

The Holy Spirit can't be divided up, as you insinuate. When God gives the believer the Holy Spirit, He gets all of Him. At the moment of faith in Christ. Gal 3:2,5.

And your final question makes no sense. When a command is given, it is EXPECTED to be obeyed. What were you thinking?

Do you really think that God gives the believer commands that he can't obey? That makes no sense.

What is clear is that you have shown no clue as to how a believer is filled with the Spirit, and why God has commanded believers to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit. All of which is directly related to the believer's spiritual life, or not.

I asked this:
"So, how does a believer obey this command?"
You replied:

If you had read what I posted, you would have seen Eph 5:18, which is a command to be filled with the Holy Spirit. So my POV is exactly the same as the Bible's.


I never said believers are commanded to be indwell with the Spirit or receive the gift of the Spirit. I think you are confused by what being filled means. Obviously.

I have shown you the direct command to be filled with the Spirit, and you have ignored it completely. Showing that you do not know how to be filled.


ps: I always include your comments in quotes.


And this shows your unfamiliarity with Scripture.

There is Simon the sorcerer, Ananias and Sapphira of Acts 5, the incestuous believer in 1 Cor 5, and on and on.


No. Eph 5:18 is a direct command to be filled with the Spirit.

Believers are always indwelt with the Spirit, but it shows that you don't understand the difference.

The Holy Spirit is the Power Source for living the Christian life according to the Bible.

Only when we are "plugged in" by being filled with the Spirit are we living the Christian life, in God's power.

When a believer is grieving/quenching the Spirit, they are out of fellowship, and living from their own will power and cann't please God.

Why not? This is what the Bible says about our own righteousnesses:
Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

In case you don't know what "filthy rags" means in the Hebrew, it means "used menstrual rags".

Without the power of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing we can do that pleases God. We are as offensive to Him as used menstrual rags would be to us.


I suggest you pay attention to the PRESENT TENSES in Rom 7 in order to realize that Pail was talking about his present life, not some past life memories.

If that doesn't convince you, consider 1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Again, notice the PRESENT TENSE in Paul's words.

I said:
"It seems you're not able to follow any of my explanations.
Like I said, it's only true when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit (living from the NEW REGENERATED nature."
You replied:

How silly. But would you claim the same thing about our Lord, who was fully human and fully divine? How is that not a "split personality", and having a human nature (the one we're born with) and a new nature is?

It seems we'll never get on the same page. You have a lot of misunderstandings of Scripture. And it doesn't seem there is any willingness to learn what the Bible says. In spite of all the verses I've shared that support my comments and points.

Short answer...I don't believe that people who commit sin have the Holy Ghost.
You do.
You say people who believe get the Holy Ghost.
I don't, as the Samaritans and the twelve at Ephesus can corroborate.
You believe that those reborn from the seed of God will commit sin.
I don't believe that for a second as His seed remains in them.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

If I'm told "Forget not your child in a hot car", does that mean I have done so before?
I think not.
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30}