Proof that the Earth is millions of years old?

drich0150 · Dec 22, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Are you or are you not claiming that we are not capable of dating anything past 5kya?

I am saying that the oldest thing we can date and verify, per historical document, is about 5000 years old. We can date anything as old as we like, but i am also saying it takes a measure of faith to believe that date. Why because there is no proof, only faith in the rate of decay being measure, remains true to the formula used to determine age of the item.

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 22, 2010

drich0150 said:
I am saying that the oldest thing we can date and verify, per historical document, is about 5000 years old. We can date anything as old as we like, but i am also saying it takes a measure of faith to believe that date. Why because there is no proof, only faith in the rate of decay being measure, remains true to the formula used to determine age of the item.

Yet we have zero reason to assume a decay rate will flucuate one iota, ever. This has never been observed, under any condition or circumstance. If this were the case, don't you think anyone, someone would have empirically demonstrated this by now? There would be much notoriety associated with such a discovery. There is a greater chance of dropping a rock off the Eiffel tower and watching it shoot skyward.

This is what happens when 'mushy-headed' thinking seeps into the sciences. Dunning-Kruger effect at work here.

razeontherock · Dec 22, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
without conflating that which we know to be a fact.

Pure arrogance. You're oblivious to the failings. Good little lemming.

razeontherock · Dec 22, 2010

Blue Man said:
Did you ever consider the possibility that the devil actually wrote the bible, lead the Jews, and embodied himself as Jesus to get people on his side? ... I think it's a fair question.

You're left with a BIG problem: explain the Resurrection.

razeontherock · Dec 22, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Yet we have zero reason to assume a decay rate will flucuate one iota, ever.

We also have zero reason to believe a decay rate will not ever fluctuate. Therefore the faith you build your house on is immeasurably greater than what Christianity requires.

And all you're left with is assumption. And it is your god.

drich0150 · Dec 22, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Yet we have zero reason to assume a decay rate will fluctuate one iota, ever

.Yet we have zero reason to assume a decay rate will Not fluctuate one iota, ever.

This has never been observed, under any condition or circumstance.

This is true Up to the 5000 year mark. "Billions and billions and billions of years" is a long time for anything to remain constant. If these changes occurred before the 5000 year mark "we" would have simply misinterpreted the data.
So again how are we supposed to know if we can not verify the findings?

If this were the case, don't you think anyone, someone would have empirically demonstrated this by now?

How can they? we only have verifiable data for the last 5000 years.

There would be much notoriety associated with such a discovery. There is a greater chance of dropping a rock off the Eiffel tower and watching it shoot skyward.

I agree, but for a different reason. that being, we can not verify anything past what we can truly prove.

This is what happens when 'mushy-headed' thinking seeps into the sciences. Dunning-Kruger effect at work here.

This is what happens when a staunch "believer" in facts has his faith questioned in a way that he has not been taught how to respond.. The "believer" resorts to name calling rather addressing the subject. I must be getting close to the pin if you have now changed your tactics by attacking me personally... Why don't you read my profile their is much in there you can use to insult me further. Maybe you will be more successful in changing the topic by attacking my heritage or some other perceived short coming.

drich0150 · Dec 22, 2010

razeontherock said:
We also have zero reason to believe a decay rate will not ever fluctuate. Therefore the faith you build your house on is immeasurably greater than what Christianity requires.

And all you're left with is assumption. And it is your god.

I am glad that i am not the only one to see that!!

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

razeontherock said:
We also have zero reason to believe a decay rate will not ever fluctuate. Therefore the faith you build your house on is immeasurably greater than what Christianity requires.

And all you're left with is assumption. And it is your god.

Have we ever observed a flucuation of isotope decay?

K40 is a stable isotope with a half life of 1.26by. Given the fact that when molten lava cools, the cystals within the igneous rock are 'zeroed' out, that is, 100% K40, and will decay to Ar40. Simple metrics will give you a ratio of K/Ar, and an accurate age of the rock. This is fact. No amount of incredulous conflation will change this.

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

razeontherock said:
Pure arrogance. You're oblivious to the failings. Good little lemming.

What failings?

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

drich0150 said:
I am glad that i am not the only one to see that!!

Birds of a feather.

jonmichael818 · Dec 23, 2010

If in order to assume that if I drop a rock and it will hit the ground(because of gravity) or in order to add 1+1 to = 2, I must have faith. Then I suppose I am a great man of faith.

It is true that radiocarbon dating(using Carbon 14) is used for dating materials around 5,000 years old, but there are many other methods of dating:
-Uranium-lead dating method
-Potassium-argon dating method
-Fission track dating method
-Optically stimulated luminescence dating method
-Chlorine-36 dating method
-Rubidium-strontium dating method
-Uranium-thorium dating method
-Samarium-neodymium dating method
-Iodine-Xenon dating, and many others that can date back from tens of thousands of years to billions of years old.

razeontherock · Dec 23, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
What failings?

You could start with the problems of assumption.

drich0150 · Dec 23, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Birds of a feather.

The same could be said about the community who you represent as well..

Given your last two statements it appears that You do not seem to have the ability to identify the irony found in your own statements. Or you have simply held christian belief to such an unrealistic standard for so long, that general hypocrisy is preventing you from addressing your own short comings in your system of belief.

This is why I shared the nature of God's judgment with you, in that it is a double edged sword. For you will be judged with the same measure you judge others.. You condemn Christian belief because it is built on faith, and yet you refuse to see the same faith being exercised in your specific system of belief.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it will not be the standard in which the sum of your life will be weighed and measured.

drich0150 · Dec 23, 2010

jonmichael818 said:
If in order to assume that if I drop a rock and it will hit the ground(because of gravity) or in order to add 1+1 to = 2, I must have faith. Then I suppose I am a great man of faith.

It is true that radiocarbon dating(using Carbon 14) is used for dating materials around 5,000 years old, but there are many other methods of dating:
-Uranium-lead dating method
-Potassium-argon dating method
-Fission track dating method
-Optically stimulated luminescence dating method
-Chlorine-36 dating method
-Rubidium-strontium dating method
-Uranium-thorium dating method
-Samarium-neodymium dating method
-Iodine-Xenon dating, and many others that can date back from tens of thousands of years to billions of years old.

This thread is not about the various types of dating, if you have taken the time to read the OP it would be clear to you why Carbon dating was even brought up. This thread is about faith and the faith that is used in the various scientific fields when in the absences of absolute proof. The examples you have left in your first paragraph are Not examples of data without proof.

It seems that you wish to trivialize and dismiss what was said by either knowingly comparing apples and oranges (Bait and switch) or you simply do not have the where withal to identify the processes being discussed. either way I do not believe that this topic of conversation will benefit much from what you have to contribute.

For example all these methods of dating will inevitably come down to three basic principles. 1) is subjecting the artifact to be tested to various types of procedures that will yield a measurable result. 2) taking that result and comparing it to a known or verifiable standard 3) using an equation to determine the age of the artifact based on what is known from the properties of the control or known standard.

Again whether it be a carbon based process or any other, Faith is exercised when what is being measured exceeds the verifiable or known data.

If you are drinking from a polluted well, changing the bucket will not yield clean water.

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

razeontherock said:
You could start with the problems of assumption.

I'll ask again. What failings?

You mention radiometric dating makes certain assumptions, yet you have failed to demonstrate how this in any way falsifies current techniques.

Let's hear it.

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

drich0150 said:
The same could be said about the community who you represent as well..

Given your last two statements it appears that You do not seem to have the ability to identify the irony found in your own statements. Or you have simply held christian belief to such an unrealistic standard for so long, that general hypocrisy is preventing you from addressing your own short comings in your system of belief.

This is why I shared the nature of God's judgment with you, in that it is a double edged sword. For you will be judged with the same measure you judge others.. You condemn Christian belief because it is built on faith, and yet you refuse to see the same faith being exercised in your specific system of belief.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it will not be the standard in which the sum of your life will be weighed and measured.

Igoring your blather, ad hom, non sequitur and flat out nonsense for the sake of staying OT, would you care to address the issue?

In what way is radiometric dating, specifcally K/Ar, unreliable?,

Lukaris · Dec 23, 2010

I am just generally replying to the OP (& out of step otherwise). I just take the creation account in the Bible in general faith as to what God instructed Moses as to what we needed to know for our faith which explains our human predicament of sin. The continuing revelation of God culminating with the our savior Jesus Christ for our salvation from sin is a literal thing and beyond any science. I also believe the universe is billions of years old and generally accept basic science as to physics & matter (not personally a scientist) but put my faith in an eternal God (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) who is our creator.

Blue Man · Dec 23, 2010

drich0150 said:
It is often difficult to find reason with one who disagrees with you. Perhaps this is why you are having such a difficult time identifying it.

What is "it"?

drich0150 said:
You misunderstand, there is no hate, only disappointment in that where I want to see a God of Love, who has sacrificed everything for the forgiveness of sin I find, an empty seat. a lacking deity who does nothing for his children other than to bribe them with a 50 carrot reward or an eternal stick. I see a God limited by the desires and fears of man. A God who can not conceive anything greater than what only the worst among us strives for.. seriously all stereotypes aside, Who wants 50 virgins? What kind of man wants, what the Koran translates into Virgins? the words can be translated into 50 unharvested (usually dealing with grapes) Or 50 young girls/virgins.. not women virgins but pedophile virgins.. and then what is your other choice? Hell.. So yeah I will be a little disappointed and welcome hell.

Those are very insulting statements to Muslims, and I assume you're a very intelligent person (based on the discussions we've had) so I am going to assume you know they're insulting. I don't see how deliberately insulting someone isn't labeled a "sin". It seems like a hate guided act.

drich0150 said:
absolutely no disrespect, but you would know this how? you do not even know God well enough to believe in Him, let alone make a judgment call about His character. Can you give one biblical example of God's grace and mercy to "other gods?" i believe you are confusing popular spirituality with actual Christianity.

Are you seriously suggesting that god condones deliberate hate filled acts against anyone?

drich0150 said:
I want you to know that this response, Your response will ring in your head over and over as you pass through those gates.. Because you will indeed get what your heart wants.

Yes when I was very young I present a question like this to my pastor and I though I was the bees knees for asking it Sunday after Sunday because he could not give me a satisfactory answer to me. Or at least I thought it was unsatisfactory when I heard it. What changed? I took his advise and earnestly ask God to open my eyes, ears and heart to the truth. this request took me through "hell" but never the less it opened my eyes ears and heart.

I'm sure the 12 year old statement was purely fact based and critical to the argument. I'm sure it had no intention to slander me or accuse my argument of being childish. Because I'm sure you know such actions are immature and are inflammatory. I could easily relate God to Santa Clause and call you childish for believing in him. So let's keep the petty insults to ourselves.

drich0150 · Dec 23, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Ignoring your blather, ad hom, non sequitur and flat out nonsense for the sake of staying OT, would you care to address the issue?

If all you say is true then why is it you seek an answer for this next question?

In what way is radiometric dating, specifically K/Ar, unreliable?

Again how does answering this question benefit you spiritually or logically?
Spiritually you claim to hold me to a standard of honesty that i have demonstrated that you yourself can not measure up to, thereby invalidating your spiritual claim, and logically you have apparently trivialized and dismissed my claim.. So truthfully what is the reason you want me to answer your question other than to change the topic?

No, we will remain on topic. If you wish to branch out into this topic I ask you again to start another thread. This thread per the OP's questions are about having Faith in Facts..

LifeToTheFullest! · Dec 23, 2010

drich0150 said:
If all you say is true then why is it you seek an answer for this next question?

Again how does answering this question benefit you spiritually or logically?
Spiritually you claim to hold me to a standard of honesty that i have demonstrated that you yourself can not measure up to, thereby invalidating your spiritual claim, and logically you have apparently trivialized and dismissed my claim.. So truthfully what is the reason you want me to answer your question other than to change the topic?

No, we will remain on topic. If you wish to branch out into this topic I ask you again to start another thread. This thread per the OP's questions are about having Faith in Facts..

Thread title: Proof that the Earth is millions of years old?

K/Ar metrics show the earth to be 4.5by old.

Proof that the Earth is millions of years old?

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