• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Proof that the Earth is millions of years old?

Status
Not open for further replies.

singpeace

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Oct 21, 2009
2,439
459
U.S.
✟62,677.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Fossils.

Carbon dating.

Can these things even be disputed? I'm a christian but there is no way the world is only thousands of years old.

whats ur take?


Dear iwannarock,

I have been serving Christ for 17+ years and used to believe that all of creation was only as old as mankind - 6 to 8 thousand years.

I now believe that it's possible, since man was the last thing created, that the earth was hanging out there void and dark for millions of years. Man was created 6 to 8 thousand years ago.

Check out this website and these great Christian Astrophysicists and other scientists who have written hundreds of articles showing how scientific discoveries continue to point to a Divine Creator.

An Evaluation of Evidence for the Age of the Universe | Reasons To Believe
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Fossils.

Carbon dating.

Can these things even be disputed? I'm a christian but there is no way the world is only thousands of years old.

whats ur take?

Can "these things" even be proven with out exercising true faith?

Because according my research the oldest thing we can accurately identify with verifiable recorded/historic data are artifacts that are about 5000 years old. The ability to date before this time period is based on an equation given the rate of decay of a specific isotope that has been established by these 5000 year old artifacts.

Here is where your faith comes in. Whether you know it or not, You believe that the rate of decay remains constant over the supposed millennia for this or any other isotope. realize no matter what you believe or others have taught you to believe there is absolutely No proof for this hypothesis. Who is to say that a few years after after our verifiable data the rate of decay that we look for, is not effected by any number of variables?? It takes Faith to say something is with out Proof!

The truth is that no matter what you believe you are subject to the exact same type of "Faith." The only real question is are you able to admit this "faith" to yourself or, will you simply swallow anything someone smarter than you identifies as "truth?"
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Here is where your faith comes in. Whether you know it or not, You believe that the rate of decay remains constant over the supposed millennia for this or any other isotope. realize no matter what you believe or others have taught you to believe there is absolutely No proof for this hypothesis. Who is to say that a few years after after our verifiable data the rate of decay that we look for, is not effected by any number of variables?? It takes Faith to say something is with out Proof!

The truth is that no matter what you believe you are subject to the exact same type of "Faith." The only real question is are you able to admit this "faith" to yourself or, will you simply swallow anything someone smarter than you identifies as "truth?"

We also take on faith that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist. :idea:

But we appreciate the argument from ignorance logic. :)
 
Upvote 0

iwannarock

Newbie
Jul 23, 2010
166
2
✟22,843.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Can "these things" even be proven with out exercising true faith?

Because according my research the oldest thing we can accurately identify with verifiable recorded/historic data are artifacts that are about 5000 years old. The ability to date before this time period is based on an equation given the rate of decay of a specific isotope that has been established by these 5000 year old artifacts.

Here is where your faith comes in. Whether you know it or not, You believe that the rate of decay remains constant over the supposed millennia for this or any other isotope. realize no matter what you believe or others have taught you to believe there is absolutely No proof for this hypothesis. Who is to say that a few years after after our verifiable data the rate of decay that we look for, is not effected by any number of variables?? It takes Faith to say something is with out Proof!

The truth is that no matter what you believe you are subject to the exact same type of "Faith." The only real question is are you able to admit this "faith" to yourself or, will you simply swallow anything someone smarter than you identifies as "truth?"

dude i think you just overloaded my capacity for philosphical thinking.

Im going to be honest here for once, and say, i have not read the bible. i should, but i havent. some chrisitian i am, huh? so does it say specifically that the earth is thousands of years old?

also how do you know god was being literal when he said the world was created in 7 days a.k.a. 168 hours (math is probably off lol)? perhaps a day to him was a million years to us?

wll anyways formulas such as Carbon dating have been proven VERY reliable. im not an expert on the subject however so feel free to point out any flaws in ym arguement.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We also take on faith that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist. :idea:

But we appreciate the argument from ignorance logic. :)


I found those who desperately want to refute my "faith argument" but can not speak to the facts contained with in the argument often defer to some sort of "Pink Unicorn" to try and trivialize what they can not refute directly.

If we were all in the 6th grade this tactic may have distracted us all from the actual content of my message rather than making your efforts here appear juvenile.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
dude i think you just overloaded my capacity for philosophical thinking.

Im going to be honest here for once, and say, i have not read the bible. i should, but i havent. some chrisitian i am, huh? so does it say specifically that the earth is thousands of years old?

also how do you know god was being literal when he said the world was created in 7 days a.k.a. 168 hours (math is probably off lol)? perhaps a day to him was a million years to us?

wll anyways formulas such as Carbon dating have been proven VERY reliable. im not an expert on the subject however so feel free to point out any flaws in ym argument.

You do not have to have "read the bible" to be a good Christian. But at the same time if you wish to responsibly respond to any post, it would be a good idea to read the post your responding to completely.

In my original statement I am not saying the earth is only 5000 years old. I simply stated no matter what you believe it is a simple matter of Faith that you believe it. Because as it is, no one side has any definitive proof to back any one account.

As I said Carbon dating has only been verified to artifacts that we defiantly know to be about 5000 years old. The way we date anything that does not come with a historical record attached to it is based off of an equation that predicts a rate of decay derived from those 5000 year old artifacts. AGAIN, It takes a measure of FAITH to believe that those rates of decay remain constant throughout the "Millennia," and that no other variables can effect that rate of decay after our verifiable evidence proves.

ONE MORE Time. I am not advocating any specific age to this planet, because I simply do not know for sure. I am just point out no matter what you claim to know, you really do not know anything for sure either. This is true for all of us. It is a fools errand to stand on either side of this argument and debate "facts/truth."
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I found those who desperately want to refute my "faith argument" but can not speak to the facts contained with in the
argument

Because there aren't any.

often defer to some sort of "Pink Unicorn" to try and trivialize what they can not refute directly.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy my substitution.

If we were all in the 6th grade this tactic may have distracted us all from the actual content of my message rather than making your efforts here appear juvenile.

Because it was a logical fallacy, maybe?
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
dude i think you just overloaded my capacity for philosphical thinking.

That's a good thing! (Drich is good for doing that, too)

i have not read the bible. so does it say specifically that the earth is thousands of years old?

That depends entirely upon how you read it. IOW, it could be taken either way. I could certainly defend either position.

wll anyways formulas such as Carbon dating have been proven VERY reliable. im not an expert on the subject however so feel free to point out any flaws in ym arguement.

Not only did Drich already do that in the part that overloaded you, many many things have been presented for dating by various methods that came back with certified results that were WAY off.

A lot of what you're expressing confidence in is much like the Wizard of Oz; pay no attention to the man behind that curtain ^_^ Interesting, yes. Reliable? ^_^ ^_^ No. Learn the raging debates and controversies among top scientific minds, and you'll realize the field is bedlam.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Because there aren't any.
A fact is a statement that can either be proved or disproved. Some examples of "facts" in my original statement are:

-The oldest object that we have been able to date and verify with historical documentation is about 5000 years old.

-We determine the age of objects that are older than this by the use of an equation that helps us determine the rate of decay of the carbon 14 isotope, and simply estimate the age of an artifact by the amount of decay present.

-To believe that the rate of decay of this isotope remains constant after any documented/verifiable proof of the age of an artifact, is available or that no other variables exist that can speed up or slow down this process, is an act of faith by definition.

There are many other instances of facts through out my original message. as i have demonstrated here, either you do not understand the nature of what a fact is, or you have selectively ignored the facts i have provided in order to not have to address them. I assume that you choose to ignore my stated facts, so that you may be able to dismiss my statement rather than address it. If you simply do not have a complete or an inaccurate understanding of what a "fact" is I apologize for the sharpness of my response.


I'm sorry you don't enjoy my substitution.
As I have pointed out your "substitution" was a weak and failed attempt on your part to dismiss the content of my original statement. for all who care to read they will see your efforts for what they are.

Because it was a logical fallacy, maybe?
Then by all means please point out the fallacy in the logic used. Or point out the in accuracies of my facts. If this is the case then there should be no issue in using my words, my descriptions and any other part of my post to specifically point out failed logic. (This means check you pink unicorn at the door and directly address what was said.)

This is the third time i have issued this challenge to you. if by now you are still not able to respond intelligently and specifically to what was said, then perhaps it would be better for you, if you sit this one out. ..or I guess you can continue on with your attack the messenger campaign rather than addressing the message, and see what comes of your efforts.
 
Upvote 0

Blue Man

Newbie
Dec 20, 2010
63
1
✟15,188.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Can "these things" even be proven with out exercising true faith?

Because according my research the oldest thing we can accurately identify with verifiable recorded/historic data are artifacts that are about 5000 years old. The ability to date before this time period is based on an equation given the rate of decay of a specific isotope that has been established by these 5000 year old artifacts.

Here is where your faith comes in. Whether you know it or not, You believe that the rate of decay remains constant over the supposed millennia for this or any other isotope. realize no matter what you believe or others have taught you to believe there is absolutely No proof for this hypothesis. Who is to say that a few years after after our verifiable data the rate of decay that we look for, is not effected by any number of variables?? It takes Faith to say something is with out Proof!

The truth is that no matter what you believe you are subject to the exact same type of "Faith." The only real question is are you able to admit this "faith" to yourself or, will you simply swallow anything someone smarter than you identifies as "truth?"
Perhaps you're right, and the constant isn't actually a constant, but at some point it unreliable. How does this explain dinosaur bones? They're not in the bible. How do you reconcile cosmic microwave background radiation - a radiation that was predicted using the same theory of decay and later found. How do you fit the ice core records from green land?

Not to mention, carbon dating has placed many historical biblical figures in the time of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Perhaps you're right, and the constant isn't actually a constant, but at some point it unreliable. How does this explain dinosaur bones? They're not in the bible.
Actually they are, it looks like you might have missed that one in your self discovery of the bible. Perhaps it is not always best to "figure things out for yourself."

Otherwise (In this case) you might miss the descriptions of the Leviathan of the deep or the Hebrew description of the tanniyn, "Giant dragon" or what it says about the behemoth in Job, such oversights leads one to think there is absolutely no account of such things in scripture.

How do you reconcile cosmic microwave background radiation - a radiation that was predicted using the same theory of decay and later found. How do you fit the ice core records from green land?
How about the bible is not a science text book and was never intended to be taught from as a text book. Holy scripture is meant to establish the deity of God, establish the law and subsequently sin, and then show away for atonement for sin, or so says the word... Again when one wanders into scripture with "what he learns on his own" That person will be subject to his own "interpretations." Most of which will be derived from misconception.

Not to mention, carbon dating has placed many historical biblical figures in the time of Christ.
:confused: Do we have documented and verified artifacts from specific individuals that prove everyone was from the time of Jesus? If we do have these items, Where are these artifacts housed? When where they found? Who found them? how do we know they belong to who you are claiming they belong to? If you can not show a pedigree of the artifacts in question, then how can you make such a claim?

Again in the end I am not represent new earth or an old earth creationism. I am simply stating that a measure of faith is used to accept any account of creation. From that point I can build a case as to the "personal preference' one exercises to believe what you want to believe, but other than that, i have nothing else to represent. I just don't want the self righteous to believe that they have something more real than anyone else. Because in the end none of us knows anything, we only have our faiths.

To which i would like to add, it is this "faith" and where we place it that is Judged. Because if all things are equal, why is it you believe what it is you believe?
 
Upvote 0

Blue Man

Newbie
Dec 20, 2010
63
1
✟15,188.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Actually they are, it looks like you might have missed that one in your self discovery of the bible. Perhaps it is not always best to "figure things out for yourself."

Otherwise (In this case) you might miss the descriptions of the Leviathan of the deep or the Hebrew description of the tanniyn, "Giant dragon" or what it says about the behemoth in Job, such oversights leads one to think there is absolutely no account of such things in scripture.


How about the bible is not a science text book and was never intended to be taught from as a text book. Holy scripture is meant to establish the deity of God, establish the law and subsequently sin, and then show away for atonement for sin, or so says the word... Again when one wanders into scripture with "what he learns on his own" That person will be subject to his own "interpretations." Most of which will be derived from misconception.

:confused: Do we have documented and verified artifacts from specific individuals that prove everyone was from the time of Jesus? If we do have these items, Where are these artifacts housed? When where they found? Who found them? how do we know they belong to who you are claiming they belong to? If you can not show a pedigree of the artifacts in question, then how can you make such a claim?

Again in the end I am not represent new earth or an old earth creationism. I am simply stating that a measure of faith is used to accept any account of creation. From that point I can build a case as to the "personal preference' one exercises to believe what you want to believe, but other than that, i have nothing else to represent. I just don't want the self righteous to believe that they have something more real than anyone else. Because in the end none of us knows anything, we only have our faiths.

To which i would like to add, it is this "faith" and where we place it that is Judged. Because if all things are equal, why is it you believe what it is you believe?
You're being pretty unrealistic. The hypothetical, when taken together paint this picture: all carbon dating after 5,000 years is wrong. Dinosaurs were around at the same time as humans (which is not shown in carbon dating), and the bible is 100% correct. Therefore billions of dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, yet they had only two accounts in the bible. Oxen and sheep were easily guarded by shepherds from T-rex and the likes, and of course Noah brought them on the boat with him. Something tells me they would be a little bit more prevalent considering that they covered the earth at one time, and assuming the world is roughly 6,000 years old, that would mean they had about a 1,000 years to do it - according the the flaw in our carbon dating system.

The much friendlier rationalization is that the bible is a book filled with stories that explain the power and motives of god. Not all of them are true to life, and some might be exaggerated.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You're being pretty unrealistic.

Realism is only a matter of perspective. for you just a little while ago reality did not include a bible that mentioned dinosaurs, now your reality has changed to incorporate a bible that does. this may not be a life altering event for you, but never the less your reality changed a little today.

Now imagine a world where the colossus, the behemoth, The Titian all rule and reign supreme. where the fallen sons of God mix with the daughters of Eve and man as God intended him to be was all but wiped out, save one man and his immediate family. What would you do if you were God to set the world free from this evil, and free the world from the beasts that feed on man and his prosperity?

Would you wash the slate completely clean? or would you preserve the one man and his family for their faithfulness? would you preserve all that threatened the righteousness man? Or would you simply preserve that which blessed the righteous man and his family? (Plus or minus the proper checks and balances) If you were God, what method would you use to wash away all of the undesirable elements of this earth and at the same time reward the faithful? How would you put all of these elements together?

As i see it, we were not always on top of the food chain, no matter who's account you have faith in. But both accounts end up with us on top. One account has man being selected to be on top, while yours suggests that we with our superior intellect (All the while being in an extremely primitive form) out witted all of the dangers of the wilds for millions of years all the while beating back the hundred billions different things that would have consumed us, not to mention the earth itself, until we have reduced all of the wildlife of this planet to less than 1% of all the creatures that ever lived. and now find ourselves on top of a dying world of our own making.

Again, reality is only a matter of perspective. that is the underlining theme to my posts here. That and the faith we all have in our versions of it. as you can see it is not hard to trivialize what anyone else believes unless you keep in mind the faith you exercise to believe what you hold to be true.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
wrong forum OP...ib4move2originsforum
We are not speaking about origins. We are using origins to speak/teach about faith. If you are truly a "C" writer you understand how important faith is in the exploration of Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

Blue Man

Newbie
Dec 20, 2010
63
1
✟15,188.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Realism is only a matter of perspective. for you just a little while ago reality did not include a bible that mentioned dinosaurs, now your reality has changed to incorporate a bible that does. this may not be a life altering event for you, but never the less your reality changed a little today.

Now imagine a world where the colossus, the behemoth, The Titian all rule and reign supreme. where the fallen sons of God mix with the daughters of Eve and man as God intended him to be was all but wiped out, save one man and his immediate family. What would you do if you were God to set the world free from this evil, and free the world from the beasts that feed on man and his prosperity?

Would you wash the slate completely clean? or would you preserve the one man and his family for their faithfulness? would you preserve all that threatened the righteousness man? Or would you simply preserve that which blessed the righteous man and his family? (Plus or minus the proper checks and balances) If you were God, what method would you use to wash away all of the undesirable elements of this earth and at the same time reward the faithful? How would you put all of these elements together?

As i see it, we were not always on top of the food chain, no matter who's account you have faith in. But both accounts end up with us on top. One account has man being selected to be on top, while yours suggests that we with our superior intellect (All the while being in an extremely primitive form) out witted all of the dangers of the wilds for millions of years all the while beating back the hundred billions different things that would have consumed us, not to mention the earth itself, until we have reduced all of the wildlife of this planet to less than 1% of all the creatures that ever lived. and now find ourselves on top of a dying world of our own making.

Again, reality is only a matter of perspective. that is the underlining theme to my posts here. That and the faith we all have in our versions of it. as you can see it is not hard to trivialize what anyone else believes unless you keep in mind the faith you exercise to believe what you hold to be true.
Reality is not subject to change, but our perceptions of it are.

I honestly think the bible is a lot of stores and lies. It just seems impossible for a book to keep it's integrity through translation, two millennium, roman consoles, and the genesis period where Christianity was first spreading. Not to mention, it's assumed that parts of the bible was written decades after Jesus death. I think it's much easier to believe the bible is just a collection of stories.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think it's much easier to believe the bible is just a collection of stories.

You can take the easy way out, but rarely is that correct. What you have presented here is WAY out, so if you reject that then good on you! It is however, what is called a strawman.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.