Proof that the Book of Mormon is a fraud!!!

[fatboys]

All this ranting about what tribe the Jews comes from is senseless and just more excuse making by the mormon people. The dna evidence looked for Hebrew blood. It was not found. The dna evidence conclusively showed that they came from asian origin, which would make a lot more sense anyway.

FB: Again, is there a pure hebrew line from which to pull this DNA from. Israel is just a branch of the Hebrews. Judah was just a branch of Israel. The nick name jew came to the tribe of Judah after the ten tribes were scattered and lost. There were two Kingdoms, the Northern kingdom and the Southern kingdoms. The Northern kingdom was carried away. The Southern had Judah, and Benjiman, and one part of the tribe of Levi. There were also a smatter of other tribes who had left the Northern kingdom before it was took captive.

 

[Breetai]

Breetai, I understand Jezusfreak not understaning this, but didn't you read the last DNA thread? (By the way, this is not the same Jezusfreak from RR is it?)

I probably didn't bother with the last DNA thread.

What's RR? I don't think that I've been to that forum, nor do I feel the need to go. She may have been from there.

The amount of "Jewish" DNA that was brought over here to the Americas was relatively small compared to the vast amount of DNA that was already here. It is highly probable that their genetic DNA markers were "swamped out" and therefore do not exist today.

That's a common argument that is based on no little or no knowledge of how DNA works. The fact is that if native Americans were originally from Israel, they would show some remote sign in their NDA or having Israeli origin. They don't. Every bit of DNA evidence shows the BoM claims, and the claims of the LDS prophets on the matter, to be completely false.

Native Americans are of Eastern Asian origin and the BoM is false. There has been no trace of 'relatively small' amounts of Israeli DNA found in native Americans. Their legends don't support this and neither does their language(in that no form of Hebrew dialect at all is found in any American language). The evidence shows that native Americans are in no way related to Israelis. They are from Asia and the Book of Mormon is false. The teachings of Moroni and Joseph Smith are not true and Mormonism is a false religion with no scientific, anthopoligical or theological support.

 

[Breetai]

FB: Again, is there a pure hebrew line from which to pull this DNA from. Israel is just a branch of the Hebrews. Judah was just a branch of Israel. The nick name jew came to the tribe of Judah after the ten tribes were scattered and lost. There were two Kingdoms, the Northern kingdom and the Southern kingdoms. The Northern kingdom was carried away. The Southern had Judah, and Benjiman, and one part of the tribe of Levi. There were also a smatter of other tribes who had left the Northern kingdom before it was took captive.

None of this matters because native Americans are from Asia, not the middle east.

 

[Doc T]

Jezusfreak and Breetia, while your enjoying your video from Living Hope Ministries you might chew on Thomas Murphy's comment about the video.

"Apologists are not the only ones to misrepresent my research for their own religious advantage. Living Hope Ministries of Brigham City, Utah, has similarly misled the viewers of a video documentary, “DNA vs. the Book of Mormon” by carefully editing out statements by scientists (including me) that conflict with their worldview.31 While the video includes several clips from scientists acknowledging an Asian origin of American Indians, the editors did not include any statements identifying the likely time range of those migrations. The first such migration likely occurred 13,000 to 20,000 years ago, well outside the range of dates acceptable to “young earth” creationists. Similarly, Pastor Joel Kramer and his crew edited out statements that discussed archaeological problems undermining literal views of the historicity of the biblical narrative. They also avoided any discussion of the nearly 99 percent similarity between human and chimpanzee dna. Finally, this Christian ministry cut my statements suggesting alternative responses to genetic data Mormons might employ instead of leaving the Church. I suggested that other possible responses include challenging the scientific data and/or reconsidering our understandings of scripture, prayer, and prophecy. In this case, the conflict is not between science and religion; rather, it is between two religious worldviews, both of which may eventually need to reconsider older views in light of the discoveries of the scientific community."​

Doc

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[jezusfreak]

(By the way, this is not the same Jezusfreak from RR is it?)

Would you please clarify what RR is? If it is the same JezusFreak....well, what is your point?

 

[Doc T]

I probably didn't bother with the last DNA thread.

That would explain it.

What's RR? I don't think that I've been to that forum, nor do I feel the need to go. She may have been from there.

It is another MB that I used to frequent and there was a poster there with that handle. Weren't suggesting you go there however.

That's a common argument that is based on no little or no knowledge of how DNA works.

I certainly agree that there are many commenting on the DNA issue who have llittle or no knowledge of how DNA works.

The fact is that if native Americans were originally from Israel, they would show some remote sign in their NDA or having Israeli origin. They don't. Every bit of DNA evidence shows the BoM claims, and the claims of the LDS prophets on the matter, to be completely false.

First of all, I assuming you mean mDNA not NDA. Secondly the Israelites that the BofM says came here came from 600 B.C. Jerusalem. Can you tell me what 600 B.C. Jewish DNA looked like? If you say it does not matter or just look at Jewish DNA today, then you certainly do not understand DNA very well.

Nor does it appear you understand the DNA markers used. Both mDNA and "Y chromosomal" DNA. Either of these DNA makers if they come from a small population can easily be swamped out in a relatively short period of time.

Let me give you a personal example. I as a father have 5 daughters. My "Y chromosomal" DNA can easily be traced back to my father and his father's father etc. The problem for my "Y chromosomal" DNA is that by having all daughters, none of my "Y chromosomal" DNA has been passed on. So when my daughers get married and have sons of their own, if you were to test their "Y chromosomal" DNA, you would find that they are not, by this marker, genetically related to me. Even though they are my grandson's, using the DNA marker that Murphy and Southerton are talking about, my own grandson's are not genetically related to me by this marker.

Native Americans are of Eastern Asian origin and the BoM is false.

That is something that you nor anyone else has demonstrated and repeating it over and over again will not change it.

There has been no trace of 'relatively small' amounts of Israeli DNA found in native Americans.

Assuming this were true, so what. See my personal example above. And the same holds true for the mDNA. If a woman has all sons, like a friend of ours, no mDNA is passed on either. Secondly, as pointed out by Southerton on the video only 5,500 people have had their DNA tested. Do you think that out of the hundreds of thousands, even millions of Amerindians that perhaps some DNA may have been missed?

Their legends don't support this. . .

I think you had better check your sources on this one.

. . .and neither does their language (in that no form of Hebrew dialect at all is found in any American language).

I suggest you read the article by Brian Stubbs entitled "Looking Over vs. Overlooking Native American Languages: Let's Void the Void," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/1 (1996) and "Elements of Hebrew in Uto-Aztecan: A Summary of the Data," F.A.R.M.S. paper, 1988, before you make such sweeping generalizations.

The evidence shows that native Americans are in no way related to Israelis.

The evidence shows no such thing. You could perhaps say that the lack of evidence shows not relation, but that is just the "lack of evidence" which is no evidence at all.

They are from Asia and the Book of Mormon is false.

Is this some type of meditation chant that you recite over and over again?

The teachings of Moroni and Joseph Smith are not true and Mormonism is a false religion with no scientific, anthopoligical or theological support.

You're pretty good with broad sweeping generalizations. But I guess that is where you are most comfortable.

Doc

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[Doc T]

Would you please clarify what RR is? If it is the same JezusFreak....well, what is your point?

RR is a MB, Rapture Ready. And if it was the same Jezusfreak I was going to say, welcome old friend. If not, I was going to say, welcome new friend.

Doc

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[Doc T]

None of this matters because native Americans are from Asia, not the middle east.

It does matter, but apparently you don't understand the issues.

Doc

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[Doc T]

Have any of you seen the video that I mentioned here? I challenge any Mormon to watch it...but please open up your minds ...you are coming to this with your minds already made up, (that is by someone else!!!) I can offer you this because I too used to be LDS...but praise the Lord he has shown me the truth...and when you know the truth it will set you free!!!

I took your challenge and now have 4 pages of notes with contradictions and errors made in the video. I don't blame the scientist for the most part, as I think it was more due to editing than to what they were trying to say.

If you would like to discuss any specific issues brought up in the video, I would be glad to.

Doc

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[A New Dawn]

Israel is anyone desended from Jacob, not just Joseph or Judah. So when we say Jew, we are referring to all from Jacob.

Native Americans are of Asian origin and are therefore not Israel. The BoM says that they were and is incorrect. Since the BoM depends on this, it is falsified. The BoM is founded on a lie.

That is not correct, Breetai.

The OT makes the distinction. Judah was comprised of two tribes who remained in the southern kingdom, Israel which took the northern kingdom was comprised of the other 10 tribes. Joseph (via Ephiam and Manassah) were in the northern kingdom. And they have become scattered throughout the world.

Judah, the two southern tribes, are what we now recognize as the Jews. The BoM peoples were from the tribe of Joseph, which decendants are not numbered among the Jews. So therefore, their DNA would not be found among those Jews that they might have collected samples from.

 

[Breetai]

Let me give you a personal example. I as a father have 5 daughters. My "Y chromosomal" DNA can easily be traced back to my father and his father's father etc. The problem for my "Y chromosomal" DNA is that by having all daughters, none of my "Y chromosomal" DNA has been passed on. So when my daughers get married and have sons of their own, if you were to test their "Y chromosomal" DNA, you would find that they are not, by this marker, genetically related to me. Even though they are my grandson's, using the DNA marker that Murphy and Southerton are talking about, my own grandson's are not genetically related to me by this marker.

Ya, but there would be a male line going back from 600BC.

I agree that most of those scientists may have assumed 20,000 years plus for the Bering Strait migration. That doesn't effect the fact that American DNA shows Asian descent(yup, it's my new chant).

That is something(that native Americans are from Asian origin and that the boM is false) that you nor anyone else has demonstrated and repeating it over and over again will not change it.

The BoM has been demonstrated as false again and again, you just don't accept the evidence..or lack of evidence to support it. Aboriganies have distictive Asian(Mongolian) characteristics, just look at them. They don't look Semetic at all. That alone should force one to question their proposed Semetic beginnings.

For the BoM being proven false, it has been demonstrated to be false over and over. Since it's a new book, the job is to have it proven as being from God. That has failed.

I think you had better check your sources on this one(that legends don't have aboriganies coming from Jerusalem).

I haven't seem too many legend telling us that American Indians have come from Jerusalem. Since there would be thousands of legens, it's certainly possible that there are many ocean crossing legends. That doesn't mean much for the BoM though, all that would help confirm is that natives weren't created on the American continents.

I suggest you read the article by Brian Stubbs entitled "Looking Over vs. Overlooking Native American Languages: Let's Void the Void," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/1 (1996) and "Elements of Hebrew in Uto-Aztecan: A Summary of the Data," F.A.R.M.S. paper, 1988, before you make such sweeping generalizations.

The article is picking at straws. It's like saying that 'posuto(which is post in Japanese)' and 'post', because they are so similar, are from the same language family. Or that, because of the similarities of the way to say 'hello' in French and Ojibway(bonjour and bohzou) that they are related. The article starts off saying that it appears that native languages have little to no relation to middle eastern languages, then lists many words from various languages and points out the similarities. It concludes that because of these similarites that were dug up, that it would not be just a coincidence that they have some similarities. The article argues from an argumentum ad numerum. It's conclusion is really indefinitive.

The evidence shows no such thing. You could perhaps say that the lack of evidence shows not relation, but that is just the "lack of evidence" which is no evidence at all.

Guilty.

You're pretty good with broad sweeping generalizations. But I guess that is where you are most comfortable.

It's called a conclusion...You took this out of context.

 

[Breetai]

The OT makes the distinction. Judah was comprised of two tribes who remained in the southern kingdom, Israel which took the northern kingdom was comprised of the other 10 tribes. Joseph (via Ephiam and Manassah) were in the northern kingdom. And they have become scattered throughout the world.

Judah, the two southern tribes, are what we now recognize as the Jews. The BoM peoples were from the tribe of Joseph, which decendants are not numbered among the Jews. So therefore, their DNA would not be found among those Jews that they might have collected samples from.

It still changes nothing.

 

[BjBarnett]

duh the native americans are hebrew. where do you think they wondered around for 40 years at? they walked to Utah and left some people there to someday write the book of mormon. then they walked back. it makes perfect sense haha

anyway Ive read this entire thread and I havnt seen one arguement by an Mormon that refutes the DNA. Just a bunch of what if's. If there is no "middle eastern dna" in native americans they are simply not middle eastern.

 

[fatboys]

duh the native americans are hebrew. where do you think they wondered around for 40 years at? they walked to Utah and left some people there to someday write the book of mormon. then they walked back. it makes perfect sense haha

anyway Ive read this entire thread and I havnt seen one arguement by an Mormon that refutes the DNA. Just a bunch of what if's. If there is no "middle eastern dna" in native americans they are simply not middle eastern.

FB: Bj I have not seen any evidence that proves anything. One way or the other. There has not been enough research, and trying to do what Murphy has done with the narrow genetic samples, it does not say it is was true or false. The conclusions can be interpreted as many different ways as the Bible. That is the fallability of man's Science. We wanted conculsive evidence that there was a group that came from the old world, and you wanted the opposite. This work is just starting to be born, and lets wait until we have more evidence one way or the other.

 

[Breetai]

This work is just starting to be born, and lets wait until we have more evidence one way or the other.

Native Americans not coming from Jerusalem in 600BC= lots of support.
Native Americans coming from Jerusalem in 600BC= no support.

 

[BjBarnett]

Native Americans not coming from Jerusalem in 600BC= lots of support.
Native Americans coming from Jerusalem in 600BC= no support.

exactly

its hard to give support for something that doesnt have any...

 

[jezusfreak]

RR is a MB, Rapture Ready. And if it was the same Jezusfreak I was going to say, welcome old friend. If not, I was going to say, welcome new friend.

Doc

Thank you for the welcome. I am not that person that you mentioned...but yes I am rapture ready.

 

[jezusfreak]

The conclusions can be interpreted as many different ways as the Bible.

The Bible is NOT open to interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20-21... 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had it's origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV, emphasis added)

The KJV say's exactly the same thing....look in your own Mormon Bible.

2 Peter 1:20-21... 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV, emphasis added)

Thought that I would put both interpretations in there so that no one could say it was only because of the NIV. I know that the LDS faith is infamous for this.

 

[jezusfreak]

Jezusfreak and Breetia, while your enjoying your video from Living Hope Ministries you might chew on Thomas Murphy's comment about the video.

"Apologists are not the only ones to misrepresent my research for their own religious advantage. Living Hope Ministries of Brigham City, Utah, has similarly misled the viewers of a video documentary, “DNA vs. the Book of Mormon” by carefully editing out statements by scientists (including me) that conflict with their worldview.31 While the video includes several clips from scientists acknowledging an Asian origin of American Indians, the editors did not include any statements identifying the likely time range of those migrations. The first such migration likely occurred 13,000 to 20,000 years ago, well outside the range of dates acceptable to “young earth” creationists. Similarly, Pastor Joel Kramer and his crew edited out statements that discussed archaeological problems undermining literal views of the historicity of the biblical narrative. They also avoided any discussion of the nearly 99 percent similarity between human and chimpanzee dna. Finally, this Christian ministry cut my statements suggesting alternative responses to genetic data Mormons might employ instead of leaving the Church. I suggested that other possible responses include challenging the scientific data and/or reconsidering our understandings of scripture, prayer, and prophecy. In this case, the conflict is not between science and religion; rather, it is between two religious worldviews, both of which may eventually need to reconsider older views in light of the discoveries of the scientific community."​

Doc

Could you please point me to where I might read this comment from Thomas for myself. Please understand that I only seek the truth...that is how I found out that the LDS faith is based on deception from JS.

 

[Doc T]

Could you please point me to where I might read this comment from Thomas for myself. Please understand that I only seek the truth...that is how I found out that the LDS faith is based on deception from JS.

You will have to PM me and I will provide the link. Posting the link, I'm afraid might be construed as a violation of rule #5 even though it is a link to Signature books.

Doc

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