Proof by prophecy

[eddie123]

I keep seeing on this site people saying that the Bible is shown to be true because of prophesies in it which have come true. I don't think there's much constructive discussion that can be achieved by arguing about whether or not the prophesies have or have not been fulfilled but there's something I don't understand which I'd be interested in learning your perspective on.....

As far as I've understood so far the argument goes:

The Bible contains prophesies
The prophesies have been fulfilled
Therefore everything else in the Bible is true

...but...

If I can predict the outcome of horse races accurately it doesn't mean that I know anything about horses or racing. My predictions might come true but anything else I told you about the subject is not necessarily of any worth.

If I can prophesy US foreign policy for the next 100 years it doesn't necessarily mean I know anything about the subject nor that anything else I tell you about the US is true.

If I can prophesy great religious events it doesn't mean that anything else I say about the nature of man or God is worth anything.

 

[ebia]

There are a lot of other holes in 'proof by prophesy' besides that one.

 

[FrAnthony]

I keep seeing on this site people saying that the Bible is shown to be true because of prophesies in it which have come true. I don't think there's much constructive discussion that can be achieved by arguing about whether or not the prophesies have or have not been fulfilled but there's something I don't understand which I'd be interested in learning your perspective on.....

As far as I've understood so far the argument goes:

The Bible contains prophesies
The prophesies have been fulfilled
Therefore everything else in the Bible is true

...but...

If I can predict the outcome of horse races accurately it doesn't mean that I know anything about horses or racing. My predictions might come true but anything else I told you about the subject is not necessarily of any worth.

If I can prophesy US foreign policy for the next 100 years it doesn't necessarily mean I know anything about the subject nor that anything else I tell you about the US is true.

If I can prophesy great religious events it doesn't mean that anything else I say about the nature of man or God is worth anything.

I'm not really familiar with any teaching that says if you are able to prophesize about something then everything else you say is automatically accepted as iron clad truth. There is certainly a difference between real prophesy and just being good at determining cause/effect.

If you were able to prophesize about great religious events and all of them came true, I think a good case could be made that you were divinely inspired with truth beyond your understanding. This would add considerable weight to your other thoughts, but even those other thoughts would still have to stand up to the test of consistency. Nothing would be just blindly accepted simply because you guessed accurately on a few future events.

Many of the writings of the Apostles and other significant people throughout the Bible did not find their way into Scripture. Everything had to show divine authority, inspiration, and consistency.

 

[calidog]

I keep seeing on this site people saying that the Bible is shown to be true because of prophesies in it which have come true. I don't think there's much constructive discussion that can be achieved by arguing about whether or not the prophesies have or have not been fulfilled but there's something I don't understand which I'd be interested in learning your perspective on.....

As far as I've understood so far the argument goes:

The Bible contains prophesies
The prophesies have been fulfilled
Therefore everything else in the Bible is true

...but...

If I can predict the outcome of horse races accurately it doesn't mean that I know anything about horses or racing. My predictions might come true but anything else I told you about the subject is not necessarily of any worth.

If I can prophesy US foreign policy for the next 100 years it doesn't necessarily mean I know anything about the subject nor that anything else I tell you about the US is true.

If I can prophesy great religious events it doesn't mean that anything else I say about the nature of man or God is worth anything.

but can you be 100% accurate 100% of the time?

 

[eddie123]

but can you be 100% accurate 100% of the time?

Well probability dictates that it is possible however unlikely it may be.

 

[Rafael]

These were not "predictions". Predictions are hit and miss, but God knows future events, standing outside of time if He pleases to view them and then relay that information to the prophet He chooses as His vessel of revelation. A true prophet of God never told a prediction to anyone, as if they did, they would more than likely lose their life with even one mistake.
One man's evidence for is another man's evidence against, it seems. The prophecies are interesting, especially those telling us how the nations move in the end times and the characteristics of the devils last world system, but probably the most important would be those that identified Jesus as Messiah in detail. It caused a big enough stir in history that it is still center stage in many people's lives as important, today.
The entire world seems to be following the things written of in the Bible, and look at Israel - the nation born again n a day, as the prophet Isaiah said would happen - born in the midst of war and turmoil like a woman struggling giving birth.
Israel in a day:
Isaiah 66:7 "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8 "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.

Eze 29:21 "And the day will come when I will cause the ancient glory of Israel to revive, and then at last your words will be respected. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.
During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.
Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.

 

[eddie123]

So (sidestepping any debate about whether or not the prophesies have been fulfilled, as per my original post) - if I tell you God has said this and that will happen and I'm never wrong then God is obviously giving me the information & hence you should follow whatever I have to say about what God wants?

 

[Rafael]

So (sidestepping any debate about whether or not the prophesies have been fulfilled, as per my original post) - if I tell you God has said this and that will happen and I'm never wrong then God is obviously giving me the information & hence you should follow whatever I have to say about what God wants?

Well, wouldn't that depend upon what the prophecy was? If it was something easily circumstancial, why would I be impressed to say God told you? I wouldn't, but when it covers thousands of years and envolves nations of people, wouldn't that be different enough to demand a bit more consideration and attention than a parlor trick of prediction? Lumping all things together does little more than hide the truth and confuse when there is clear difference between the silly circumstance and the events that change history. Paying attention to detail when it may be worth it takes being able to discern what is truly foreknowledge and what is more than likely not. Running after signs and wonders is not encouraged by the scriptures, but Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning Himself to those who would recognize Him through the prophecies. That doesn't restrict God to just using prophecies, though. He presents Himself in so much more, especially through science, IMO, but that and intelligent design are a different story.

 

[eddie123]

OK - so assume (for the purposes of this discussion) that I prophesy events that cover thousands of years and involve nations of people and the events that change history and then I say that God has shown me these things and that he also has told me that you must all do X and Y to be in his good books. Would the fulfilment of these prophesies mean that God was speaking to me and hence make valid the things I told everybody to do?

 

[solarwave]

There are more than 1 or 2 that have come true, there are many. That just doesn't happen. So must be from God. I dunno if it means that but I'm not gunna think too deep into it.

 

[prophecystudent]

There are many prophecies in the bible that have come true. Some predicted hundreds of years before the event happened that the event would happen. At least one prophesied (I believe) 500 years before the event that a king would come and be a conquerer. The name was Cyrus, if I recall, and it happened precisely as the prophecy stated,.

There are more than 300 prophecies about Christ in the old testament. Every single one, with the exception of a few that refer to the end times, has come to pass, exactly as prophesied.

When you can predict hundreds of years before the event, with 100 percent accuracy, then you MIGHT be called a prophet. Disclosing prophecies from God does not mean that every thing you say comes from God. Hence, without proof, there is no reason to believe everything you say. In fact, the bible is clear on what constitutes a prophet. 100 percent accuracy.

The problem with making predictions hundreds of years in the future is that you will be long dead before it can be proven that you were, or might have been, a real prophet. Again, no basis in the current era to believe everything you say.

If I recall correctly, a prophet usually said something like, "Now hear the word of the Lord". Not everything great prophets like Isaiah, or Ezekiel and others said were prophecies. They only prophesied when moved by God to do so.

Fred

 

[Rafael]

OK - so assume (for the purposes of this discussion) that I prophesy events that cover thousands of years and involve nations of people and the events that change history and then I say that God has shown me these things and that he also has told me that you must all do X and Y to be in his good books. Would the fulfilment of these prophesies mean that God was speaking to me and hence make valid the things I told everybody to do?

Not necessarily, if following the guide lines God relates to us in His Word. He says let all things be established by two or more witnesses, and that seems to be the way the propecies have worked - with at least two or three, but if you are trying to nail down an exact formulae it would be pretty difficult to do when there is such a system of lies already set up and ready to react to any truth. It is run by the "prince of the is world", the devil. That is why we are warned of false prophets and of following so-called signs and wonders in the future. Many counterfeits to the truth have already appeared and keep coming everyday. A person who is filled with the spirit of truth will recognize the truth, and the gift of God is that Spirit of truth. Until a person wants to really know what is true, they are easily led by their own desires and self-centered egos which they are enslaved to. Truth revolves around what they want, when they want it - not around God and His revelation to man.