98cwitr

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If that is so please refrain from claiming to be for rule of law or against illegal immigration in the future as you have above said you would cast those principals aside if those violating the law agree with you on other matters.

Why? If we passed legislation to reform immigration then "the rule of law" is still applicable. I'm all for it. I have an awesome coworker who has been trying to get his citizenship for 13 YEARS and still waiting. It's ridiculous.
 
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98cwitr

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This is exactly where I realize in an argument with my evangelical friends that they are not sincere in their view about politics and Christianity.

When it comes to Abortion and Gay marriage, my evangelical friend quote scripture and show their passionate faith in Biblical doctrine and how we Christian should try to influence government to ban abortion and gay marriage because that is what Bible teaches us, this is how we should practice Biblical teaching.

Few minutes later when conversation turn to immigration or healthcare for all or better welfare system for poor or free education for all , that very friend who was telling me that as Christian I should vote to influence Biblical teaching on government, starts telling me Government is not the place to practice Biblical principle. They will agree helping the poor, giving shelter to foreigner is Biblical, taking care of widow or sick is Biblical teaching but that is the job of Christian and Church, not the Government. By then they became steadfast defender of complete “separation of Church and State” .

In another word , they want some Biblical principle enforce by Government, other teaching they have reservation.

Being anti-covetous AND anti-abortion aren't mutually exclusive. "Separation of Church and State" meant that the government did not decree or enforce a particular religion and/or theology on the citizens. That was it, very cut and dry understanding. Somehow, it snowballed into something else entirely. I most certainly want devout Christians at the helm of this country, unfortunately they seem to be in short political supply.
 
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Desk trauma

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Because you said that we should ignore the law and open the border so long as those seeking illegal entry were "whole hearted anti-socialist". Hence the issue is not about rule or law as law breakers are fine so long as they agree with the proper political positions.
 
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SummerMadness

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As much as there is this argument about illegal immigration, it is a false argument because when Republicans were in power, they did everything in their power to depress and prevent legal immigration. Illegal immigration is just a smokescreen, Trump already gave the game away when he referred to some countries as an expletive and wanting to see more immigration from Europe. It's hard to take any of these argument seriously when the person they follow already said and did otherwise. If you are all for legal immigration, then you shouldn't support rejecting more people that you claim to lionize.
 
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98cwitr

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Because you said that we should ignore the law and open the border so long as those seeking illegal entry were "whole hearted anti-socialist". Hence the issue is not about rule or law as law breakers are fine so long as they agree with the proper political positions.

Woah....never said ignore the law. That's putting words on my posts that I certainly didn't write.
 
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SummerMadness

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Being anti-covetous AND anti-abortion aren't mutually exclusive. "Separation of Church and State" meant that the government did not decree or enforce a particular religion and/or theology on the citizens. That was it, very cut and dry understanding. Somehow, it snowballed into something else entirely. I most certainly want devout Christians at the helm of this country, unfortunately they seem to be in short political supply.
Or more likely, the things I value are not followed, so I claim Christians beliefs are not being followed. Why not just say that I value certain Christian ideals more than others? It seems more truthful than claiming one group is more "fallen" than the other.
 
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Desk trauma

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Being anti-covetous AND anti-abortion aren't mutually exclusive. "Separation of Church and State" meant that the government did not decree or enforce a particular religion and/or theology on the citizens. That was it, very cut and dry understanding. Somehow, it snowballed into something else entirely. I most certainly want devout Christians at the helm of this country, unfortunately they seem to be in short political supply.
How quickly "we're electing a [insert political position here] not a pastor" changes when republican's are in the minority.
 
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SummerMadness

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Woah....never said ignore the law. That's putting words on my posts that I certainly didn't write.
Are you then arguing if anti-socialists were "flooding the border" you would demand the law be amended so that they can become citizens? How is that any different from the people you claim are doing the same for "socialists at the border"?
 
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Woah....never said ignore the law. That's putting words on my posts that I certainly didn't write.
You very much said open boarders are something that you are fine with so long as most of the illegal economic migrants have the proper politics. Hence the the objection to illegal immigration and open boarders cannot be based in principal or the impacts of uncontrolled migration.
 
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SummerMadness

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How quickly things changed from "were electing a [insert political position here] not a pastor" changes when republican's are in the minority.
I predicted this last year, they would start crowing about Christianity, but after lionizing Donald Trump for four years, it falls on deaf ears because the flip-flopping is too magnificent. I also said they'd be screaming about the debt and deficit after claiming they don't matter, or the "tax cut will pay for it" (news flash: it didn't).
 
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Pommer

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Man if it was whole-hearted anti-Socialists flooding the border I'd be crying for open borders :thumbsup: Unfortunately, those who respect the rule of law also respect borders enough to jump through hoops to enter legally.
We do not have a functional immigration “system” rather a hodgepodge of laws and regulations, so the best shot that most people have is to set foot in our fair land and ask for asylum.

EDIT: John Oliver did a nice overview of how screwed up our immigration “system” is, the video is on the YouTube machine, if you’re interested in seeing it. I, of course, cannot link to it because Oliver has a potty mouth.
 
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SummerMadness

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Wanting a secure border is racist? Maybe we should take care of our legal citizens first?
Claiming you are being replaced is the racism. Immigration is what makes the United States an amazing country. Always has, always will. Anytime people scream about people "flooding" the borders or describe immigrants as "invaders" has always been part of a nativist, racist movement. The irony, of course, they are all descendants of immigrants, so was the country not caring about legal citizens first when their parents and grandparents entered the United States? No one is being replaced, except in the minds of white supremacists.
 
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98cwitr

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Or more likely, the things I value are not followed, so I claim Christians beliefs are not being followed. Why not just say that I value certain Christian ideals more than others? It seems more truthful than claiming one group is more "fallen" than the other.

Well, because there are some jobs for the state to do: Protect rights and enforcing laws

And there are some jobs for the church to do: Charity and evangelism

I don't want churches enforcing laws any more than I want government being a charity or evangelizing; do you?
 
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Guinan

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How quickly "were electing a [insert political position here] not a pastor" changes when republican's are in the minority.

Yes, it is rather ironic how "I voted for a President, not a pastor!" has altogether disappeared among Trump supporters since Biden was elected. But it's too late for these conservatives to start acting like the personal character of the president is an important moral issue for them again. No one, outside of the Trump echo chamber, is taking their public display of moral indignation towards Biden seriously.
 
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SummerMadness

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Yes, it is rather ironic how "I voted for a President, not a pastor!" has altogether disappeared among Trump supporters since Biden was elected. But it's too late for these conservatives to start acting like the personal character of the president is an important moral issue for them again. No one, outside of the Trump echo chamber, is taking their public display of moral indignation towards Biden seriously.
A year or two ago, I made the same observation. Because conservative Christians latched themselves so prominently to a man that did not espouse the beliefs they claimed to champion, it completely undermined them. In the future, any time they speak of morals, they can now be completely ignored because it's obvious this is not about morals, it's about power.

It's the same thing with immigration, they are simply against immigration because they see it as a the dilution of the white vote. Fox News has been pushing this hysteria over the past decade with repeated articles about white people losing majority status by 2050. It's what fueled their opposition to immigration. All immigration is their target; that's why they have rejected more refugees, cut the number of applications, increased processing time for green cards, and have in general, made the process of immigrating and becoming a US citizen harder. However, running on that shows too much of their hand, so they argue as if they are only concerned about illegal immigration. They don't want any immigrants because an immigrant is less likely to come from Europe, which they believe means they do not support the current extremist form of the Republican Party.

This is also what fuels their overdriven effort to limit voting; reminiscent of the literacy tests and poll taxes of the past, they want make it harder to vote because they believe only the "right kind of people" should be voting.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Claiming you are being replaced is the racism. Immigration is what makes the United States and amazing country. Always has, always will. Anytime people scream about people "flooding" the borders or describes immigrants as "invaders" it has always been part of a nativist, racist movement. .

That's a purely emotional argument and frankly, it's a disgusting attack on the character of anyone willing to propose any basic immigration policy.

Regardless of that....let's address it.

Do you believe the economy can grow endlessly? If not....we can only support so many people before losing quality of life for all.

Do you believe that we can create some gigantic welfare state capable of supporting an endless number of people? If not....we need to limit the amount of people entering the nation.

This isn't even addressing the other issues like security and the vast abuses involved in human trafficking.

Make a real argument instead of pretending to have a moral position.
 
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If we're just making moral arguments....

Those supporting the current administration supports the following...

Debt slavery.
Widespread child abuse.
Sex trafficking.
The vast criminal networks that control passage through Mexico with the threat of murder.
 
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