Professing to be wise, they became fools

[Nathan Poe]

Faith

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to slam "man's opinions" on certain matters, particularly those you know little about. Your assurance of your own salvation seems to be based on the exact same thing.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I only disagree on the last one. What John was arguing is that evolutionists like us profess to be wise, but in fact aren't. John himself, of course, is actually the wise man on this forum, or at least, that is what is implied in his post (as in a lot of other posts of him).

Actually we don't disagree on this point--at least not really, so maybe I just worded it strangely. What I mean in saying that this thread is a diversionary tactic similar to what he does with posts on other threads is that he has started a thread that is a generalized attempt to insult scientists by saying they "profess to be wise, but in fact aren't" rather than dealing with relevant evidence on other threads in order to show that it's true. Rather it's just an excuse to make cavalier comments, basically, as evidenced by pretty much every post he has made in it including the claim that lucaspa is "full of BS."

 

[EvolvEarth]

JohnR7, do you ever feel ashamed of yourself for false witnessing, blatantly lying and spinning information, attacking other Christians for a different interpretation of the scriptures than you, claiming things about people that aren't even true, and basically only coming here to get a rise out of people?

One thing about lucaspa is that he doesn't let pre-conceived ideas get in the way of the truth. He's not going to reject science because he feels it goes against his own interpretation of the Bible. I constantly hear fundamentalists claim that science is man's word and therefore errant, but do fundamentalists even realize that the Bible was written by men? Inspired by God is not the same as dictated by God, and therefore it seems God could've given man some sort of poetic license when writing the Bible. However, empirical evidence simply isn't man's word, more than likely it's the closest thing we can get to God's word. John and other illogical fundamentalists, perhaps you're the one who's rejecting God's word. Maybe even us atheists are more accepting of God's word than you.

Don't treat the Bible as an idol.

 

[Tomk80]

Actually we don't disagree on this point--at least not really, so maybe I just worded it strangely. What I mean in saying that this thread is a diversionary tactic similar to what he does with posts on other threads is that he has started a thread that is a generalized attempt to insult scientists by saying they "profess to be wise, but in fact aren't" rather than dealing with relevant evidence on other threads in order to show that it's true. Rather it's just an excuse to make cavalier comments, basically, as evidenced by pretty much every post he has made in it including the claim that lucaspa is "full of BS."

Indeed, we do seem to agree after all my friend.

 

[Larry]

Actually, your the one that is judgeing me here. As you judge, so shall you be judged.

Also, christians do not go before the judgement throne of God. We go before the judgement throne of Christ, so as to determine if we will receive a reward or loss for the works that we have done.

That is why makes being a christian a fantastic deal. We do not pay any of our debt, so we get to keep all of our rewards or wages. Of course like I said, there will be people who suffer loss and they will receive no rewards, because they did not do anything to earn them.

That does not mean there is no price to pay in this life for breaking the law of God. Clearly we do reap what we sow while we are still alive in that regard.

[/font]

Sounds like your the one that needs to take heed. I pray about everything I do, before I do it.
You should check yourself to see if your being led by God or not. It is not your place to judge me or my heart.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls.
Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Out of context again, John!

Romans 14 is in the context of eating meat, drinking alcoholic beverages, and observing on day over another, and that you should not do any of this if it places a stumbling block in front of your brother!

And what do we have here?
"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." Do you think you're exempt from this? Paul is addressing Christians in Romans 14.

I said that God will judge you. Still, we are commanded to judge, with righteous judgement, if something is right or wrong. And when you twist scripture to fit your warped sense of reality, that is flat wrong.

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

All in all, you have not answered my main post here. Instead, you danced around the peripheral posts, and have been completely silent on the deeper and more meaningful issue.

I still remember the day when you posted that you were at a dinner event, and someone was having a seizure or something. I'll never forget your post when you expressed this as an 'inconvenience' and 'embarrassment' for you. That post, a couple of years ago, spoke volumes about you.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

Nonsense, there are not enough hours in the day to answer all the questions that I get on this forum. Even if I did somehow manage to answer all of the questions, I would only get twice as many questions in their place.

Hi John.

Don't worry so much about the questions. Worry about backing up your claims.

Simple rule: Don't post a claim unless you have the time and knowledge to defend it.

 

[revolutio]

I did not make myself very clear. What I was meaning to say is that some of the false teaching today that we find in science goes back to the Romans and the Greeks. Early church fathers argued against it. Even Paul's letter to the Romans came up against some of their false beliefs.

Could you be specific on these beliefs?

I just want that question answered.

 

[JohnR7]

Simple rule: Don't post a claim unless you have the time and knowledge to defend it.

I have the time and I can get the knowledge to defend my claim. I do not have time for people who want to waste my time with nonsense. I am not going to do free research for people, let them learn how to do their own research. If you want someone to spoon feed you, then go to the university and pay someone to do just that. I am not going to spoon feed people for free.

My wife and I are very giving people. But there is a limit to what we can do for others. God has blessed us and we want to share those blessings with others. But it reaches a point where your hindering people, when you are doing for them what they really need to be doing for themselves.

 

[Gracchus]

I have the time and I can get the knowledge to defend my claim. I do not have time for people who want to waste my time with nonsense. I am not going to do free research for people, let them learn how to do their own research. If you want someone to spoon feed you, then go to the university and pay someone to do just that. I am not going to spoon feed people for free.

My wife and I are very giving people. But there is a limit to what we can do for others. God has blessed us and we want to share those blessings with others. But it reaches a point where your hindering people, when you are doing for them what they really need to be doing for themselves.

Hmm! How can I put this politely? I can't. ROFLSHINSM!

 

[Larry]

I have the time and I can get the knowledge to defend my claim. I do not have time for people who want to waste my time with nonsense. I am not going to do free research for people, let them learn how to do their own research. If you want someone to spoon feed you, then go to the university and pay someone to do just that. I am not going to spoon feed people for free.

My wife and I are very giving people. But there is a limit to what we can do for others. God has blessed us and we want to share those blessings with others. But it reaches a point where your hindering people, when you are doing for them what they really need to be doing for themselves.

Horse-hockey!!!

If you don't have time to back up what you claim, then don't make any claims. It's as simple as that, John. This is how these boards work. And, no one wants to hear you tooting your own horn about how much you and your wife 'do for others'. Most of us do for others.

Bottom line: The next time you decide to conjure up some 'brainstorm' idea of a thread, if you don't have time for follow-up questions and counter-points, or if you don't have time to back up what you say, or if you haven't thought it through entirely, then do us all a favor and don't bother starting the thread in the first place. Period.

 

[JohnR7]

I just want that question answered.

Basicly what your asking me is where did the theory of evolution begin and how has the theory evolved over the years.
This link looks to me like it would be a good place to start in your research on that:

http://www.gennet.org/facts/metro21.html

 

[Data]

I have the time and I can get the knowledge to defend my claim.

Do it then.

I do not have time for people who want to waste my time with nonsense. I am not going to do free research for people, let them learn how to do their own research.

Except when we do the research we find you wrong.

 

[JohnR7]

Do it then.

Are you deluded? What do you think I have been doing?

Except when we do the research we find you wrong.

You wish you could prove me wrong, so you could continue to cling to your lies and your delusions. But the facts are, you can not prove me wrong.

 

[JohnR7]

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to slam "man's opinions" on certain matters, particularly those you know little about.

Man's opinions are worthless if they do not line up with the word of God. It does not matter how much or how little I know about them, I only need to know where they came from (man)and that they do not line up with the truth.

Your assurance of your own salvation seems to be based on the exact same thing.

You do not seem to know what faith is, perhaps because you do not have God's faith at work in you. Faith and love work together and they begin with God, it is a work of God in us. They do not originate in and with man.

I trust in the promises of God and there are many promises that are associated with salvation. Here is just one of them.

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Salvation is past, present and future. God did a work in us to save us, He is doing a work in us to save us and He will continue to work in us untell we are called home to our reward.

There are people who believe you can walk away from God and lose your salvation, if you do not continue steadfast in the love and faith of God. I do not know why anyone would reject or refuse the grace of God. I do not know why anyone who has tasted to see that God is good, would want to walk away and turn their back on God. But in theory, you can, because we do not give up our free will when we get saved.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Are you deluded? What do you think I have been doing?

Trolling from the looks of it.

You wish you could prove me wrong, so you could continue to cling to your lies and your delusions. But the facts are, you can not prove me wrong.

Project much, Johnny?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Man's opinions are worthless if they do not line up with the word of God. It does not matter how much or how little I know about them, I only need to know where they came from (man)and that they do not line up with the truth.

And knowing nothing useful about them, how then do you tell if they line up with this "Truth" you think you have?

You do not seem to know what faith is, perhaps because you do not have God's faith at work in you. Faith and love work together and they begin with God, it is a work of God in us. They do not originate in and with man.

And this is true because you think so.

Well, that's one man's opinion.

I trust in the promises of God and there are many promises that are associated with salvation. Here is just one of them.

You trust, but you do not know. Hence, you have an opinion.

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Salvation is past, present and future. God did a work in us to save us, He is doing a work in us to save us and He will continue to work in us untell we are called home to our reward.

There are people who believe you can walk away from God and lose your salvation, if you do not continue steadfast in the love and faith of God. I do not know why anyone would reject or refuse the grace of God. I do not know why anyone who has tasted to see that God is good, would want to walk away and turn their back on God. But in theory, you can, because we do not give up our free will when we get saved.

Wow, that's a lot to dig out of a fairly short verse. You sure you're not adding your own opinion to the mix?

 

[Larry]

Are you intentionally trying to confuse the issue?

I'll try to make this as clear as possible.

"Professing to be wise....". What kind of wisdom are we talking about? Could it be the wisdom of math? No. Could it be the wisdom of linguistics? No. Could it be the wisdom of science? No. Could it be the wisdom of auto mechanics? No. Could it be the wisdom of indoor plumbing? No. Could it be the wisdom of aerodynamics? No.

So, what kind of 'wisdom' are we talking about? Let's not assume things, and go right to scripture, specifically those parts you overlooked and ommitted.

Here's the set-up.

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Apparently, they were not glorifying God, their thoughts became futile, and their hearts became darkened, (turned away from God). They became more reliant on their own moral and spiritual standards...basically living by their own philosophy, instead of living by God's standards, and trying to justify their lifestyle by trying to make God fit their views and moral standards.


Thus......

"22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Moral and spiritual decay, plain and simple.



And, here's the defining moment for exactly what 'wisdom' scripture is talking about.....

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

So, like I've been saying all along, the 'wisdom' which is spoken of, is all about spirituality, morality and living the way God wants us to. It has nothing to do with non-spiritual or non-moral issues such as science, auto mechanics, indoor plumbing, math, linguistics, cooking, or any other knowledge along these lines.


Still waiting, John.

 

[revolutio]

Basicly what your asking me is where did the theory of evolution begin and how has the theory evolved over the years.

Lol, why are you telling me what I am asking you?

"What I was meaning to say is that some of the false teaching today that we find in science goes back to the Romans and the Greeks. "

I want you to elaborate on what false teachings to today go back to the Romans and the Greeks. I couldn't think of any but, as I have hopefully said before, my memory is awful.

 

[JohnR7]

JohnR7, do you ever feel ashamed of yourself for false witnessing.

No, because I do not ever "false witness", so there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

[JohnR7]

Still waiting, John.

Still waiting for what? For me to teach you about wisdom? I think you need to study it and learn it on your own. A good place to start would be with solomon, he teaches a lot on wisdom and what it is. Just run a search using the key word wisdom in your Bible and read the passages that come up.

Proverbs 10:21
The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

Proverbs 13:10
Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 14:6
A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

Proverbs 24:3
Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:

Proverbs 3:13
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.