Professing to be wise, they became fools

[Tomk80]

Oh, I see, so what do you think the cut off point should be? Only people with masters degrees need to apply? Then perhaps we can let someone really special like Lucas in here, so they can worship the ground that he walks on. So we can put a sign up that says only ignorant people need apply, illiterate people are not welcome, stay out, go post elsewhere.

John, I'm just wondering. Have you really not a moment considered that maybe, just maybe, the people here get so fed up with you because you criticize something which you don't understand. Have you never, not even for a moment, considered that maybe, just maybe, your arguments aren't discounted because they are made by you, but because they are based on assumptions about what the theory of evolution is saying which are false? Or that people might get so fed up with you because you don't go through the trouble of backing up your positions, or actually rebutting refutations which are made on your posts?

To summarize, has it never crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, people are kicking your virtual butt because the way you are going at it now just isn't the way to go?

 

[lucaspa]

I am not professing wisdom, I am pointing out what the Bible has to say about wisdom.

Since you took that qoute out of context and had it refer to something it didn't, you are corrupting the Bible. Paul was talking about people who preached that the day of the Lord had come and gone. It's very clear if you start from the start of the chapter. Of course, if you disrespect the Bible, you can cut snippets and pieces to get it to mean anything you want. That is not wisdom.

yet we have the mind of Christ. So our understanding will be greater than that of Solomon.

And yet you are not wise enough to listen to God. How sad.

 

[lucaspa]

It is though wisdom and understanding that we can study the natural world that we live in. God gave us the ability to know Him though a study of the natural world. But man will exchange this for a man made substitute.

That's exactly what you do: exchange what God says in nature for your man-made substitute of GAP Theory. Nice of you to condemn your own actions, John. Now, just listen to yourself.

There is a wisdom of the world that is foolishness to God.

Creationism in all its forms. After all, it was thru a study of hte natural world that Christians came to understand that God had not created by creationism!

 

[Tomk80]

Wisdom has nothing to do with science? You said it, not me.

You're twisting words again John. Larry said that "wisdom" in the verses you cited has nothing to do with science, but refers to spiritual wisdom. That is different from saying that wisdom has nothing to do with science.

What you should do now is either:
1. Agree with him and retract your position
or
2. Explain why wisdom, in the context of the bible quotes you gave, does indeed refer to science.

Twisting Larry's words isn't the way to go at it.

 

[lucaspa]

Do you think he is going to object to people quoting the Bible?

If they are misquoting it like you are, yes, I think he will object. Anyone with a love of truth would.

 

[JohnR7]

That's exactly what you do: exchange what God says in nature for your man-made substitute of GAP Theory.

lucas, you have not demonstrated to me that you even know or understand the gap theory,
untell your able to do that, then I am going to continue to assume that you do not know what your talking about.

The theory itself is not that significant. That is why I call it a theory.
What matters is I believe in a literal Bible, you do not.

Your childish mud slinging is not going to change that any.

 

[JohnR7]

If they are misquoting it like you are

I am still waiting for you to show me which of the The Seven Rules of Bible Interpretation I do not abide by.

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/3.htm

 

[lucaspa]

I did not make myself very clear. What I was meaning to say is that some of the false teaching today that we find in science goes back to the Romans and the Greeks. Early church fathers argued against it. Even Paul's letter to the Romans came up against some of their false beliefs.

John, creationism is derived from the Greeks. The idea of immutable species comes from Plato's "perfect forms" and from Aristotle's idea that forms on earth are but shadows of thoughts of god.

Paul's letter to the Romans does not mention science, but is talking about religious beliefs and worship of pagan gods.

BTW, early Church Fathers all argued against a round earth. They were flat earthers! Should we follow them in that scientific idea?

Titus 1:12-13a
One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." [13] This testimony is true.

OUt of context again.

Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially of the circumcision party; they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for base gain what they have no right to teach." Good description of creationists, wouldn't you say, John? After all, you admitted you never studied about evolution, therefore you have no right to teach in the subject, do you?

You are teaching a GAP Theory that no other Christian holds. It appears to be for base gain -- credit for John. Well, this passage says we are to silence you. So why don't you follow the Bible and silence yourself?

12-13 "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.' this testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." We rebuke creationists so that they may be sound in the faith. Unfortunately, for base gain they do not wish to be. For instance, Dembski has admitted he won't publish in the scientific literature because he makes money in books. Can't get much more base, can you, John? Thirty pieces of silver.

 

[JohnR7]

because the way you are going at it now just isn't the way to go?

The way of life is not the way to go? You got that wrong. I hate death, death is the enemy.
I love people and I am not fighting against them, I am fighting for them, I am fighting for their lives.

 

[JohnR7]

John, creationism is derived from the Greeks.

ahh, the gospel according to lucas, here we go again, don't give you your day job guy.

 

[Tomk80]

The way of life is not the way to go? You got that wrong. I hate death, death is the enemy.
I love people and I am not fighting against them, I am fighting for them, I am fighting for their lives.

If that wasn't clear from the rest of my post, I was purely talking about your behaviour on the forum.

 

[Tomk80]

ahh, the gospel according to lucas, here we go again, don't give you your day job guy.

Why don't you just counter the argument John, in stead of ad homming Lucaspa?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why don't you just counter the argument John, in stead of ad homming Lucaspa?

Because lucaspa's right, and Johnny knows it.

 

[Larry]

Wisdom has nothing to do with science? You said it, not me.

Are you intentionally trying to confuse the issue?

I'll try to make this as clear as possible.

"Professing to be wise....". What kind of wisdom are we talking about? Could it be the wisdom of math? No. Could it be the wisdom of linguistics? No. Could it be the wisdom of science? No. Could it be the wisdom of auto mechanics? No. Could it be the wisdom of indoor plumbing? No. Could it be the wisdom of aerodynamics? No.

So, what kind of 'wisdom' are we talking about? Let's not assume things, and go right to scripture, specifically those parts you overlooked and ommitted.

Here's the set-up.

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Apparently, they were not glorifying God, their thoughts became futile, and their hearts became darkened, (turned away from God). They became more reliant on their own moral and spiritual standards...basically living by their own philosophy, instead of living by God's standards, and trying to justify their lifestyle by trying to make God fit their views and moral standards.


Thus......

"22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Moral and spiritual decay, plain and simple.



And, here's the defining moment for exactly what 'wisdom' scripture is talking about.....

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

So, like I've been saying all along, the 'wisdom' which is spoken of, is all about spirituality, morality and living the way God wants us to. It has nothing to do with non-spiritual or non-moral issues such as science, auto mechanics, indoor plumbing, math, linguistics, cooking, or any other knowledge along these lines.

 

[Larry]

Context. Context. Context.

 

[EvolvEarth]

JohnR7, to me, you seem to be claiming yourself as a god under your god.

 

[Jet Black]

ahh, the gospel according to lucas, here we go again, don't give you your day job guy.

I love the way you ignore everything he said and go straight for the ad hom.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Or that people might get so fed up with you because you don't go through the trouble of backing up your positions, or actually rebutting refutations which are made on your posts?

It's not even that he doesn't rebut any refutations of his claims, it's that he doesn't even try to address them or acknowledge they exist. Instead he picks out an unrelated sentence or sentence fragment (which we saw in the reply to your message here, all over this thread, and all over the forum) and creates an imaginary context to the unrelated comment and spins it 180 degrees so he can turn into a preacher and/or personally attack people and/or make completely off-topic comments as a diversonary tactic. This whole thread was started as a diversionary tactic irrelevant to the forum topic.

 

[Tomk80]

It's not even that he doesn't rebut any refutations of his claims, it's that he doesn't even try to address them or acknowledge they exist. Instead he picks out an unrelated sentence or sentence fragment (which we saw in the reply to your message here, all over this thread, and all over the forum) and creates an imaginary context to the unrelated comment and spins it 180 degrees so he can turn into a preacher and/or personally attack people and/or make completely off-topic comments as a diversonary tactic. This whole thread was started as a diversionary tactic irrelevant to the forum topic.

I only disagree on the last one. What John was arguing is that evolutionists like us profess to be wise, but in fact aren't. John himself, of course, is actually the wise man on this forum, or at least, that is what is implied in his post (as in a lot of other posts of him).

One thing I notice about John's posts is that he often refers to scientists or people with a higher education. He seems to think that they look down upon the uneducated. It seems to me that this is some sort of complex of him which he just has to spin out every once in a while. To me, he comes over as jealous, every time he does so.

However, John actually got me thinking lately. Especially with respect to new posters who come to these boards. We do have a tendency to react quite strongly on new creationists who enter in. I, for one, know I can get quite irritated after hearing the 2lot-argument for the umpteenth time. However, maybe it would be wise to consider trying to be a little more polite unless we are absolutely sure they do not have the incentive to learn. Maybe a little more restraint to new posters might be wise, and more convincing (although if they turn out to be new Buddy1s or Johns, I don't object to a little rudeness. We're supposed to have fun here also ).

 

[JohnR7]

It's not even that he doesn't rebut any refutations of his claims, it's that he doesn't even try to address

Nonsense, there are not enough hours in the day to answer all the questions that I get on this forum. Even if I did somehow manage to answer all of the questions, I would only get twice as many questions in their place.