problems with secularism?

[razeontherock]

So, as an atheist, I have a hard time understanding why Christians seem to have a problem with secularism. For the sake of this post, I'll define secularism as not only prohibiting the establishment of a national religion, but also against favoring any particular religion. Does anyone here think secularism is a problem? And if so, why?

No. For the record, I think our Founding Fathers were very bright and accomplished men, who set this Nation up to be great. It's taken us an awful lot of trying to tear it down, and finally we're succeeding ...

 

[razeontherock]

Can you give an example of how secular teaching conflicts with Christian teaching in relation to morality? To be honest, I don't remember any such classes on morality when I was in school, although admittedly that was long ago. We had some teaching on ethics as it pertained to medicine, politics, and business. This is hardly the same thing as morality though. To my knowledge, it has always been the position of schools to leave the teaching of morality to the parents, and I happen to agree. Also, isn't brainwashing a bit strong of a term to use in this context? It seems to imply the inability to think for oneself. I don't think I would ever characterize a school as brainwashing a student.

I just posted on an ideological basis, and the fact that I made it through your whole thread w/o objecting to anything til your last post says a LOT. If I were forced to guess, I'd say you are well-educated, with above an associates degree.

And yet this post here emphasizes the problems with "secularism," from a practical standpoint. I mean, your first question here, is actually sincere.

Wow.

I'm guessing you were never bullied in school? Because Christian teaching infuses us with this crazy idea that if you, as an individual, do nothing about a bully, that everything will be ok. I mean, surely those in authority can see what's going on, and put a stop to it, right? At least in the younger grades. And once teachers are no longer able to physically control the situation, the establishment can still take disciplinary action, right?

And yet that doesn't happen. Quite the opposite, actually.

Another sharp contrast is teachers tend not to like it when you think for yourself. Sure, there are some exceptional teachers that recognize it and actually enjoy it, but this is a real clash between value systems.

Morality is taught by actions, not curricula.

 

[underheaven]

Oops, I suppose I should've been more specific. I meant secularism in the government, as in policy or public institutions.

I am in France ,which is a secular country,and as I am a reason as well as a faith based Christian,this pleased me,when I came at first,but now I see the long term effects of the emptiness of an atheist[darwinian] school system on the people and society. No society can exist in the long term without the Light of God.If there is enough 'light' left from previous practice and belief,as was the case in France ,the introduction of a rational,philosophical based attitude does add to the balance neccessary to know God. For God is not only Perfect Love ,but Perfect Knowledge.Those in power in the church who have prevented at the 'correct time',[the post enlightenment period 19th century,was the perfect time], the developement of knowledge of God, in ALL it's fullness, but instead thechurch chose to give more power to individuals to push a 'belief only faith' have paid the price, and will continue to do so.
It means ,as I have said here before ,that they have 'created' atheists from people who might 'know' God, by alienating them from a chance to Know God in His 'scientific form' . However ,atheism is the most 'irrational' of all the 'belief systems,and is based on a lack of 'light',literally.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I just posted on an ideological basis, and the fact that I made it through your whole thread w/o objecting to anything til your last post says a LOT. If I were forced to guess, I'd say you are well-educated, with above an associates degree.

And yet this post here emphasizes the problems with "secularism," from a practical standpoint. I mean, your first question here, is actually sincere.

Wow.

I'm guessing you were never bullied in school? Because Christian teaching infuses us with this crazy idea that if you, as an individual, do nothing about a bully, that everything will be ok. I mean, surely those in authority can see what's going on, and put a stop to it, right? At least in the younger grades. And once teachers are no longer able to physically control the situation, the establishment can still take disciplinary action, right?

And yet that doesn't happen. Quite the opposite, actually.

Another sharp contrast is teachers tend not to like it when you think for yourself. Sure, there are some exceptional teachers that recognize it and actually enjoy it, but this is a real clash between value systems.

I have a bachelors in poli sci, with a very wide range of study beforehand. Yet I wouldn't say I'm "well-educated" lol I had to read and reread your post and I'm still not sure of the point you were making. Of course I got bullied in school, I thought nearly everyone did at some point. Which Christian teachings were you referring to? Love thy enemy? Turn the other cheek? Or god helps those who help themselves? I understand that teachers can't stop bullying in every case, but I don't think that was your point. Did you want them to? You might think me a bit crazy but I actually think a bit of bullying is good in a child's development. Also, I recognize that original thought isn't cultivated often in the classroom, but I think this is more symptomatic of a system that overstates the value of standardized testing more than anything else. Im hard pressed to think "value systems" are at fault. I would agree entirely that morality is learned through actions, not curricula, and I might add that parents should consider the effects their actions have on their children's sense of morality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No. For the record, I think our Founding Fathers were very bright and accomplished men, who set this Nation up to be great. It's taken us an awful lot of trying to tear it down, and finally we're succeeding ...

THanks for weighing in! HOnestly, I just wanted to know what Christians thought on the topic. It's hard to get a straight answer on here. SOme people seem to have their own agendas. To me, a secular society seems like the only possible equal society for everyone. THat's why when I see a backlash against it in the media, I'm a bit confused. Sure, I understand that Christians think their viewpoint is correct, but so does everyone else. The only fair way for everyone is if we keep religion out of the government and public sectors. And still, so many seem angry at any attempt to do so.

 

[joey_downunder]

THanks for weighing in! HOnestly, I just wanted to know what Christians thought on the topic. It's hard to get a straight answer on here. SOme people seem to have their own agendas. To me, a secular society seems like the only possible equal society for everyone. THat's why when I see a backlash against it in the media, I'm a bit confused. Sure, I understand that Christians think their viewpoint is correct, but so does everyone else. The only fair way for everyone is if we keep religion out of the government and public sectors. And still, so many seem angry at any attempt to do so.

Australia is a pretty secular society. Our Prime Minister openly admits she is an atheist.

Overall we're a pretty 'live and let live' society but there are some down sides to this.
Unfortunately equal rights and recognitions to all groups and religion can lead to forced tolerance of all groups etc at the expense of freedom of Speech. Australians do not have the same freedom of speech rights as Americans do.

For example imagine the outrage in the USA if christian pastors were charged with racial vilification for speaking about another religions' beliefs in their own church. Religion in the dock in Muslim vilification appeal - National - theage.com.au

 

[Ana the Ist]

I am in France ,which is a secular country,and as I am a reason as well as a faith based Christian,this pleased me,when I came at first,but now I see the long term effects of the emptiness of an atheist[darwinian] school system on the people and society. No society can exist in the long term without the Light of God.If there is enough 'light' left from previous practice and belief,as was the case in France ,the introduction of a rational,philosophical based attitude does add to the balance neccessary to know God. For God is not only Perfect Love ,but Perfect Knowledge.Those in power in the church who have prevented at the 'correct time',[the post enlightenment period 19th century,was the perfect time], the developement of knowledge of God, in ALL it's fullness, but instead thechurch chose to give more power to individuals to push a 'belief only faith' have paid the price, and will continue to do so.
It means ,as I have said here before ,that they have 'created' atheists from people who might 'know' God, by alienating them from a chance to Know God in His 'scientific form' . However ,atheism is the most 'irrational' of all the 'belief systems,and is based on a lack of 'light',literally.

Wow. Clearly you have some very unique beliefs. I'm not sure if you answered the question though, is it possible for you to do that without going into any great detail about your personal beliefs?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Australia is a pretty secular society. Our Prime Minister openly admits she is an atheist.

Overall we're a pretty 'live and let live' society but there are some down sides to this.
Unfortunately equal rights and recognitions to all groups and religion can lead to forced tolerance of all groups etc at the expense of freedom of Speech. Australians do not have the same freedom of speech rights as Americans do.

For example imagine the outrage in the USA if christian pastors were charged with racial vilification for speaking about another religions' beliefs in their own church.

I read the article and it was mind blowing. How easily we take free speech for granted in this country. It seems to me a very dangerous thing to draw a line between speech which is acceptable and speech which is prohibited. That line could feasibly end up anywhere.

 

[razeontherock]

I had to read and reread your post and I'm still not sure of the point you were making.

I honed in to your first question in the post I replied to, which asked "how secular teaching conflicts with Christian teaching in relation to morality?"
I gave a couple examples. The bullying issue, Christianity (C) teaches that if we hold our peace, all will be well. Well, that is NOT the case in a public school. Whether any of us likes that or not, it is an entirely different value system, and what they promote are anti-thetical to one another.

The issue of independent thinking, I think we see eye to eye on, and I would be so bold as to suggest every thinking person agrees, at least in theory. Implementing that is not so easy, and I've come across some very interesting ideas about that on CF! Wish I remembered the name of the eastern European poster who's studied the development of our school systems from square one, and worked in many different educational environments. Anyway, some interesting people congregate here!

I would agree entirely that morality is learned through actions, not curricula, and I might add that parents should consider the effects their actions have on their children's sense of morality.

As a total aside, I'd like people to re-think the whole Santa Claus Easter bunny thing in the light of promoting honesty.

 

[razeontherock]

THanks for weighing in! HOnestly, I just wanted to know what Christians thought on the topic.

To me, a secular society seems like the only possible equal society for everyone. THat's why when I see a backlash against it in the media, I'm a bit confused. Sure, I understand that Christians think their viewpoint is correct, but so does everyone else. The only fair way for everyone is if we keep religion out of the government and public sectors. And still, so many seem angry at any attempt to do so.

Ok, well let me give you a fer instance. The school system I was raised in was why my parents, who were both teachers, decided to move there. Academically it had always been one of the Nation's top 10, and musically it was excellent. Lots of pro musicians graduated from there. (If you've ever seen the movie "Garden State," you've seen it, as well as the culture clash it sits in)

You may be aware that music programs Nationwide have been slashed due to budget concerns. You may not be aware of how much it costs to equip a good-sized school ensemble (orchestra, choir, and/or band) with sheet music to just ONE piece of music. So when people decide sacred music can't be part of the program anymore, what happens?

From a purely educational standpoint, "The Messiah" is GREAT, and Frosty the Snowman sux. Plus, this particular HS happens to be 1/2 and 1/2, Jewish and Christian, and the Jewish 1/2 said the exact same thing, with 0 complaints about sacred music. (None of which in standard use was Jewish)

So the problems in application may be somewhat different than what you envision.

My sons went through the school system where the head of the KKK lived. They witnessed non-religious people being made to remove empty symbols of C, while Muslims were allowed to disrupt everything, praying right in the middle of class, halls between classes, you name it, while no one dared disturb them.

 

[joey_downunder]

I read the article and it was mind blowing. How easily we take free speech for granted in this country. It seems to me a very dangerous thing to draw a line between speech which is acceptable and speech which is prohibited. That line could feasibly end up anywhere.

Yes where it comes to censorship and free speech Australia is actually one of the worst in the world outside of totalitarian countries. Censorship in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sad but true. Not as easy-going as we appear on the surface.

Even more worrying story from one of today's papers. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...for-political-retribution-20120303-1u9vk.html. This has happened indirectly from political turmoil from a terrible political soapie that's been going on for quite a while. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2107667,00.html

Rupert Murdoch's news empire has been especially scathing of the lies and deceit from Gillard. Guess who all the "proposed" legal changes would affect most....

You Americans have it better than you realise.