problems with secularism?

[Ana the Ist]

Seperating thoughts and actions is possible only to hypocrites. Who are not terribly intellectually interesting to me.

Separating* thankfully judges have figured it out too and they are the ones interpreting the law. Actually this explains a lot about you. If I couldn't tell my thoughts from my actions I'd probably think I was always right.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who are not terribly intellectually interesting to me.

Btw, nothing about this sentence is grammatically correct, or makes sense.

 

[Ernst Junger]

Separating* thankfully judges have figured it out too and they are the ones interpreting the law. Actually this explains a lot about you. If I couldn't tell my thoughts from my actions I'd probably think I was always right too.

And if I thought ideas were merely something to play with between shoveling food in my gullet at the local happy china buffet or masturbating to erotic nintendo fan fiction, I might consider them a quaint pastime as well.

 

[Ernst Junger]

Btw, nothing about this sentence is grammatically correct, or makes sense.

Fragments make sense. Business writers abuse them constantly.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And if I thought ideas were merely something to play with between shoveling food in my gullet at the local happy china buffet or masturbating to erotic nintendo fan fiction, I might consider them a quaint pastime as well.

Well regardless of what activities you compare your thoughts to, they are still demonstrably wrong.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Fragments make sense. Business writers abuse them constantly.

Fragment or not, you're still missing a question mark.

 

[Ernst Junger]

Oh man, I thought you were being anal about a serious error of usage! That should admonish me from overestimating internet atheists in the future!

No, on that issue, you are completely wrong. A serious error of usage is the second sentence is a fragment. Both are fine for understandablity... which is kind of what I was getting at with my first salvo. Unfortunately, I accidentally pricked your hypersensitivity about intelligence, and thus our conversation is now about your inept corrections of grammar.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh man, I thought you were being anal about a serious error of usage! That should admonish me from overestimating internet atheists in the future!

No, on that issue, you are completely wrong. A serious error of usage is the second sentence is a fragment. Both are fine for understandablity... which is kind of what I was getting at with my first salvo. Unfortunately, I accidentally pricked your hypersensitivity about intelligence, and thus our conversation is now about your inept corrections of grammar.

You're right about it being a fragment, but punctuation is just as important. Either way, you're getting way off topic. I stated that the US doesn't favor a majority's ideology over a minority's. You stated that the US does this all the time but failed to give an example or qualify your statement in any way. So please, back up your fallacious statement, retract it, or move on.

 

[Ernst Junger]

It'll never be the same now that I know how smart you are

I stated that the US doesn't favor a majority's ideology over a minority's. You stated that the US does this all the time but failed to give an example or qualify your statement in any way

But I did. Criminals. You claimed an important distinction between actions and ideology. I retorted that bifurcation is interesting only to hypocrites. You threw a hissyfit and here we are. Ideas without actions are meaningless; on some level, we both agree to this.

And the courts do judge based on ideas, not merely on actions. If I kill a person on accident, or if I kill them on purpose, the only difference is intent, a idea. But that is the difference between manslaughter and murder.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It'll never be the same now that I know how smart you are






But I did. Criminals. You claimed an important distinction between actions and ideology. I retorted that bifurcation is interesting only to hypocrites. You threw a hissyfit and here we are. Ideas without actions are meaningless; on some level, we both agree to this.

And the courts do judge based on ideas, not merely on actions. If I kill a person on accident, or if I kill them on purpose, the only difference is intent, a idea. But that is the difference between manslaughter and murder.

Bifurcation doesn't apply here, ideas and actions are fundamentally different so no separation* needs to happen. Again, I can't believe I have to explain this, your analogy fails. Intent does help establish a type of crime, but is not a crime in itself. Without the action there is no crime. I also have to disagree that ideas without actions are meaningless. Criminals have defied or broken a law by their actions, while their ideas may lend a distinction to a crime, the ideas are not crimes in of themselves. That's fail number 2, do you care to try again or are you ready to concede that you are simply wrong?

 

[Soothfish]

So, as an atheist, I have a hard time understanding why Christians seem to have a problem with secularism. For the sake of this post, I'll define secularism as not only prohibiting the establishment of a national religion, but also against favoring any particular religion. It seems to me that this idea doesn't do anything to "destroy" christianity but actually protects it. Maybe I have it all wrong and it just seems like Christians are against secularism because I hear it from Christians who have access to large audiences. Does anyone here think secularism is a problem? And if so, why?

I can't be against the secularism that you define because it doesn't exist in the real world at this time.

Western nations, including the USA, are now governed almost entirely by corruption both in government and in society. The politicians and their public sector business supporters are working hard to destroy anyone who doesn't tow the party line. This includes indoctrinating school children into atheism, communism, and much much worse. There are school systems here in the USA that actually teach children as young as 5 years old how to stick fingers inside of another person's genitals or a fist inside the anus. There was actually a news report about a school in San Francisco where two 8 year old children decided to strip naked and have hardcore sex right there in the classroom while all the other children and a substitute watched. No outrage from the secular left whatsoever. After all, these two children will make fantastic patrons for Planned Parenthood when they turn 10....

That is the best example of a new horror that was produced entirely by our distinctly secular culture. Another one is the school shootings which simply never happened in ages past. Another one is how the crime rate rises exponentially the closer one gets to a secular stronghold (such as the cities or particularly "progressive" suburban communities).

I'm not attacking any persons in particular, just citing the stories and trends of our time.

 

[salida]

Secular media hate christians
Secular media's hate of Christians (OneNewsNow.com)

Plus, they start taking away freedoms-this has happened for the last 80 years slowly.

Progressive education-dumming down america
http://www.conservative.org/acuf/issue-198/issue198news1

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can't be against the secularism that you define because it doesn't exist in the real world at this time.

Western nations, including the USA, are now governed almost entirely by corruption both in government and in society. The politicians and their public sector business supporters are working hard to destroy anyone who doesn't tow the party line. This includes indoctrinating school children into atheism, communism, and much much worse. There are school systems here in the USA that actually teach children as young as 5 years old how to stick fingers inside of another person's genitals or a fist inside the anus. There was actually a news report about a school in San Francisco where two 8 year old children decided to strip naked and have hardcore sex right there in the classroom while all the other children and a substitute watched. No outrage from the secular left whatsoever. After all, these two children will make fantastic patrons for Planned Parenthood when they turn 10....

That is the best example of a new horror that was produced entirely by our distinctly secular culture. Another one is the school shootings which simply never happened in ages past. Another one is how the crime rate rises exponentially the closer one gets to a secular stronghold (such as the cities or particularly "progressive" suburban communities).

I'm not attacking any persons in particular, just citing the stories and trends of our time.

unfortunately, you didn't actually cite anything. I did look into the story about sex in the classroom, and while it is disturbing, it didn't occur in the manner you expressed. Also, I'd like to point out that one, or even a few isolated incidents, don't equate to a "trend". As for sex education in the classroom, it sounds like an issue with curriculum and has nothing to do with secularism. The rest of your assertions about corruption, communism, indoctrination, atheism etc. Are simply unfounded. It's hard for me to believe every school system is coordinating on some "agenda" when its hard to find one school system that can coordinate on a lunch menu. My point is that without some evidence, these statements are baseless and dp nothing to further the discussion on improving our nations schools.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Secular media hate christians


Plus, they start taking away freedoms-this has happened for the last 80 years slowly.

Progressive education-dumming down america

Thanks for the reply and the related links. Might I suggest that in the future you try to avoid such obviously biased sources as any research they cite immediately becomes suspect since the source is admittedly pushing an agenda. Regardless I read them both and I wasn't very impressed. The first is simply an opinion piece that cites no data or research and quite frankly states a position which is no more valid than yours, mine, or anybody else's. The second actually did cite some data gathered from studies, but in no way manages to show any correlation between the data gathered on the state of education in the US and its causes. It did make one interesting point though, the school systems in the US consistently rank between 25-27 in the world. If this was due to secularism, one would assume that whichever schools score in the top 5 worldwide would not be secular. However, upon research, we find this to be false. Every top school system in the world is entirely secular. I would suggest examining the differences between those school systems and our own for anyone who wishes to really understand what is wrong with our schools today.

 

[Soothfish]

unfortunately, you didn't actually cite anything. I did look into the story about sex in the classroom, and while it is disturbing, it didn't occur in the manner you expressed. Also, I'd like to point out that one, or even a few isolated incidents, don't equate to a "trend". As for sex education in the classroom, it sounds like an issue with curriculum and has nothing to do with secularism. The rest of your assertions about corruption, communism, indoctrination, atheism etc. Are simply unfounded. It's hard for me to believe every school system is coordinating on some "agenda" when its hard to find one school system that can coordinate on a lunch menu. My point is that without some evidence, these statements are baseless and dp nothing to further the discussion on improving our nations schools.

I didn't cite internet sources because this is from my own experience working in several dozen school systems.

I try to avoid using "official" sources unless they are scientific or actuarial in nature. The mainstream media is incredibly biased and less well known sources are automatically accused of bias. So it would be pointless.

 

[Soothfish]

Thanks for the reply and the related links. Might I suggest that in the future you try to avoid such obviously biased sources as any research they cite immediately becomes suspect since the source is admittedly pushing an agenda. Regardless I read them both and I wasn't very impressed. The first is simply an opinion piece that cites no data or research and quite frankly states a position which is no more valid than yours, mine, or anybody else's.

No it was an experience piece. There is plenty of research out there so I didn't feel the need to cite it. Every news source is biased and every research journal is incomplete. At the end of the day it's up to each individual to look at the bigger picture.

The second actually did cite some data gathered from studies, but in no way manages to show any correlation between the data gathered on the state of education in the US and its causes. It did make one interesting point though, the school systems in the US consistently rank between 25-27 in the world. If this was due to secularism, one would assume that whichever schools score in the top 5 worldwide would not be secular. However, upon research, we find this to be false.

I don't know why anyone would assume that. Doesn't make sense. Maybe someone who automatically connected 'secular' with 'bad' would say that.

Every top school system in the world is entirely secular. I would suggest examining the differences between those school systems and our own for anyone who wishes to really understand what is wrong with our schools today.

By all means examine but they are not any more secular than ours. It is not even possible for them to be more secular than ours!

There are other reasons why foreign schools are better than ours. For one, they value education. American kids value stupidity. Stupidity is cool! They have no respect for education or for teachers. They don't find out until adulthood that the dorky nerds become the leaders of society while the "cool kids" barely scrape by. Also you would not believe how many hours of the day are wasted while trying to get the troublemakers to stop harassing their fellow students. It goes on for many many hours. In the inner cities they spend half the day just yelling! Then everyone wonders why High School dropout rates are at an all-time high!

Also, USA schools emphasize self-esteem and "social awareness", not academics. A student can get an A+ for walking in with a pulse and a scholarship for reciting someone's political agenda.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't cite internet sources because this is from my own experience working in several dozen school systems.

I try to avoid using "official" sources unless they are scientific or actuarial in nature. The mainstream media is incredibly biased and less well known sources are automatically accused of bias. So it would be pointless.

I hate to point my finger and yell "pants on fire!" but there are some fishy things about this statement. Several dozen school systems?? As in 36 or more school systems? That's a lot of experience. Why continue working in schools if you are so clearly against the way they operate? What exactly were the positions you held in all these schools? What was the nature of your experience? Were you approached by officials of some sort who told you that you had to teach some pro-atheist, communist, or liberal agenda? After so much "experience" did you manage to get ahold of any hard evidence of your claims?
As far as citing sources goes, scientific data isn't needed to lend some validity to your claims. It would've been sufficient just to give examples which can be verified through multiple media outlets.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No it was an experience piece. There is plenty of research out there so I didn't feel the need to cite it. Every news source is biased and every research journal is incomplete. At the end of the day it's up to each individual to look at the bigger picture.



I don't know why anyone would assume that. Doesn't make sense. Maybe someone who automatically connected 'secular' with 'bad' would say that.



By all means examine but they are not any more secular than ours. It is not even possible for them to be more secular than ours!

There are other reasons why foreign schools are better than ours. For one, they value education. American kids value stupidity. Stupidity is cool! They have no respect for education or for teachers. They don't find out until adulthood that the dorky nerds become the leaders of society while the "cool kids" barely scrape by. Also you would not believe how many hours of the day are wasted while trying to get the troublemakers to stop harassing their fellow students. It goes on for many many hours. In the inner cities they spend half the day just yelling! Then everyone wonders why High School dropout rates are at an all-time high!

Also, USA schools emphasize self-esteem and "social awareness", not academics. A student can get an A+ for walking in with a pulse and a scholarship for reciting someone's political agenda.

I don't understand why you are replying to my response directed at salida's statements and links. Are you and salida the same person? Don't you think that salida is capable of explaining or defending his/her own statements? If this was a mistake on your part then you should still be able to edit and delete your mistake. If this was intentional however, I suggest you reread the links that salida posted so that will better understand my reply. LIkewise, if it wasn't a mistake, let me know and I'll gladly reply.
THanks

 

[eachallberg]

So, as an atheist, I have a hard time understanding why Christians seem to have a problem with secularism. For the sake of this post, I'll define secularism as not only prohibiting the establishment of a national religion, but also against favoring any particular religion. It seems to me that this idea doesn't do anything to "destroy" christianity but actually protects it. Maybe I have it all wrong and it just seems like Christians are against secularism because I hear it from Christians who have access to large audiences. Does anyone here think secularism is a problem? And if so, why?

When it comes down to the teachings within a secular setting I see them often become conflicting to what Christ taught. Christianity promotes a humble family like love for all, while the secular can be for that and they can be ok with the opposite. How confused people are going to be taught both negative and positive.
Why is it a problem?
If i'm going to brainwash myself i'll use water, not ink.

Peace.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When it comes down to the teachings within a secular setting I see them often become conflicting to what Christ taught. Christianity promotes a humble family like love for all, while the secular can be for that and they can be ok with the opposite. How confused people are going to be taught both negative and positive.
Why is it a problem?
If i'm going to brainwash myself i'll use water, not ink.

Peace.

Can you give an example of how secular teaching conflicts with Christian teaching in relation to morality? To be honest, I don't remember any such classes on morality when I was in school, although admittedly that was long ago. We had some teaching on ethics as it pertained to medicine, politics, and business. This is hardly the same thing as morality though. To my knowledge, it has always been the position of schools to leave the teaching of morality to the parents, and I happen to agree. Also, isn't brainwashing a bit strong of a term to use in this context? It seems to imply the inability to think for oneself. I don't think I would ever characterize a school as brainwashing a student.