Problems with Faith Alone Theology and the Double Imputation Theory.

corinth77777

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For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:12‭-‬14‭, ‬19‭-‬20‭, ‬27 KJV

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 KJV
Years ago...like 10 ...I read and called a man
Who said we were the lake of fire.....He had a very interesting take but dont know where...I saw his article but I called him...He ssid no one would believe him......I tried to share but...lol no on believed me..thats why I asked where u ou get those ideals...He make his ministers flames of fire...I dont know if I believed what he said but something to look into for sure
 
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Phil 1:21

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When discussing “faith alone, grace alone” versus “acts” people get cause and effect flipped around quite a bit. The beatitudes weren’t a road map to salvation; they were a reflection of the saved. We don’t do good works because we are trying to leverage salvation from God (unless you’re a follower of Joel Osteen and trying to guilt God into getting you a new bass boat). The good works we do are a result of our faith in the Lord and acceptance of His Grace. I don’t bring my wife flowers because I want something from her. I do it because we deeply love one another.


This whole concept of salvation through acts is a great theology if you’re selling something like indulgences (sorry, I meant “offering them in exchange for charitable donations”), but it’s not Biblical. To the people who believe we are saved through our own actions I ask this: What exactly do you think was the point of Jesus dying on the cross?
 
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corinth77777

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I don't have a problem with other people having different views in their faith because I haven't always had the same views I have now, so I'm not attacking anyone's belief. That is my way of saying don't get offended by what I'm about to say :) The problem I see with that definition of purgatory is we are the body of Christ, who became sin, literally, not by word or symbol or thought or lie, but became sin to be a sacrifice that cleansed all sin. If we are the body of Christ then we have already paid the wages of sin by the faith of Christ. Not by our faith, but by his faith and his righteousness. He was imputed with righteousness from the Father for His faithfulness unto us, the body of Christ. We are therefore justified by faith alone, but it is the faith of Christ and not our faith, not our works, not our righteousness, but Christ alone. So my belief is the closest thing we have to purgatory is living in a body of flesh.
Ok..hi again... im going to take a stab at it

These are my thoughts....for today
We were made by him, through him, and for him
The faith of Jesus Justifies...his faith was belief on the father.
We must have the same faith...

Jesus believed on the father...and the father did the work

How do we get there....We first have to believe the gospel....

Jesus is the one sent to save the world from sins....He came in the Flesh
We accept the light....

Now whats next.....we walk in the light
When you walk in the light, you are walking in Love....we know we are cleansed when we walk in the light....so the cleansing done by
God which is the spirit of Christ

The cleansing is our Justification done by the spirit...and the work we do is the Fathers work....

I bet this has to do with the 3 that bear witness on earth and 3 in heaven
 
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ewq1938

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Question - If a man is justified by faith alone and the scriptures say man is justified by faith (Rom 3:28, 5:1, Gal 2:16), why then add in the word "alone", when the word "alone" does not exist within any scripture text in the context of justification by faith?

A good observation. While it is true that the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith alone and nothing else, faith is never alone, but is always associated with action. Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is an action taken in obedience to God's commands, but it has never been obedience itself to God's commands that justifies us, rather we are justified by the faith that leads us to obey them. We are justified by faith in God to lead us in how to rightly live, we are required by that same to faith to live in obedience to those commands, we show our love for God by our obedience to those commands, and we thereby grow in a relationship with God based on faith and love.
 
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sixpointer

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Problems/Questions with faith alone theology and it's accompanied theory of double imputation are presented below.

On Faith Alone

Question - If a man is justified by faith alone and the scriptures say man is justified by faith (Rom 3:28, 5:1, Gal 2:16), why then add in the word "alone", when the word "alone" does not exist within any scripture text in the context of justification by faith?


Question- if man is justified by faith alone, why doesn't any scripture text actually say that?


Question- If man is justified by faith alone, but the scriptures say man is justified by faith, what assurance does the interpreter of the scriptures have that works infer all human action other than faith? Why not infer only works within the Mosaic covenant, such as circumcision?


Question- If man is justified by faith alone, does he lose justification when faith is lost? If so, the elect do not have faith in heaven so how are they justified?


Question- If man is justified by faith alone, when the doctrine of faith alone is only ever derived from a text, why not derive other doctrines such as saved by patience alone, or saved by hope alone, when patience and hope also exist within the scriptures in association with salvation? After all, if justification by faith alone is not explicit within the text, why not derive other doctrines and claim those doctrines are implied, just as faith alone is implied within other texts?


Question- The reformers taught the gospel teaching on justification by faith alone was the gospel that was not taught by Rome, but was taught by the early Church. If this is so, why is there almost no evidence whatsoever in Church history for the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone? If there is no evidence from history for the reformed doctrine, why then believe their claims about Rome's false teaching, when the witness of history is against the reformation.


Question- If a man is justified by faith alone by the Father imputing the righteousness of Christ to the sinners account, why is one of the proof texts Romans 4:5-8 -


5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”


Where Rom 4:7-8 cites Ps 32:1-2, where Ps 32:2 says the Lord does not count sins against them and in whose spirit is no deceit (and therefore no sin)?


Ps 32:2 Blessed is the one whose sin the LORD does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.


Question - Does not, "no deceit" infer the sinner has been cleansed from sin within his soul and thereby is not counted as righteousness? Why then believe God forgives sin and declares a sinner righteous whilst remaining a sinner, when Rom 4 and Ps 32 both infer the declaration of righteousness follows upon, or conforms to the interior restoration of the sinner, via an interior righteousness rather than the reformed understanding of imputed righteousness?

The Double Imputation Theory.

Problem - The reformers taught the double imputation as the great exchange. Christ became as sin and was punished in our place, and we sinners receive Christ's righteousness by faith alone, by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to our account.

As Richard Lints as the Andrew Mutch Distinguished Professor of Theology and Vice President for Academic Affairs, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, says -



There is no “transfer” of righteousness in salvation but rather a declaration that sinners are all that Christ is – not that sinners actually are all that Christ is.

The above quote has many problems with regard to the following -

1) Christ is “declared a sinner” at the cross. Who does the declaring and why? Is it the Father who does so? Why declare Christ a sinner anyway? After all, the Father is God and need not do this, for He could have chosen another way to have Christ suffer on the cross.

2) Christ is “declared a sinner” at the cross. If the Father does the declaring, the Father has made a false statement, causing the Father to sin. Christ is then dying on the cross to save the Father from His own sin. Such is impossible, for the Father cannot sin.

3) Christ is “declared a sinner” at the cross. If the Father has made a false statement, then Christ is involved in the Father acting to sin, making Christ's action on the cross an occasion of sin. Because Christ knew the Father would sin, Christ should not have died on the cross, contrary to the Father's will to save the Father from sinning to save men from sin.

4) Christ is “declared a sinner” at the cross. But this only means Christ is declared a sinner for the sins of those who have faith. For those who do not have faith, Christ is not their savior. Hence the Father only declares Christ a sinner for the sins of the faithful, but not for the sins of the unfaithful. Somehow the Father has decided to declare Christ a sinner for those being save, but not for those not being saved. Hence the Father must make the declaration and thereby sin for the elect, and not declare for the unsaved and thereby not sin for the non elect. So for anyone to go to heaven, the Father is their sinful father. For those who go to hell the Father is the sinner who has chosen not to declare and not sin, but in not declaring for them, has decided to abandon them. In abandoning them He has decided not to be a Father, and thereby sin against them. The convoluted outcomes of the Father imputing sin to Christ at the cross shows the Reformed doctrine to be false.

5) Sinners are declared righteous. Again, if the Father does the declaring of righteousness, then He is involved in a lie and becomes the sinner. The cross then becomes a series of logical problems that end up making God into a sinner who needs to be saved from the salvation process.

Question - why believe the reformers when 1) they have no authority, 2) have no foundation in church history, 3) have no basis for their beliefs in scripture, 4) have no logical arguments, 5) require that God be a sinner, 6) require that men are both sinners and righteous, 7) have opinions that mutually contradict each other and contradict other generations of Protestants?

There is simply no reason to believe anything they say, so why not abandon the reformation and seek for something more historical, more scriptural as found within an institution that actually makes a claim of authority and has the historical credentials to back those claims?

RC Sproul says quite candidly that the double imputation theory is both central to the reformation and is the gospel.



The problems with the above statement are manifold.“Our sin is imputed to Jesus” – infers God has imputed sin to Jesus. Because all three persons of the Trinity always act together, all three persons of the Trinity acted to impute Jesus with sin. All three know Jesus has no sin, but impute sin to Jesus. Of course if Jesus is God, then He cannot sin. Hence the imputation of sin is a legal fiction. The legal fiction makes the imputation process very problematic, for God is then being unjust to both Jesus who does not deserve the imputation, and God who imputes the sin is also having an act measured by the law of God, which in turn must accuse God Himself of acting contrary to the law.

Furthermore, the process of imputing sin to Jesus infers -

1) God’s law becomes the ultimate measure of God’s acts, which are known to be a fiction in the context of imputing sin to Jesus. Yet God is the ultimate measure of all and is not measured by any law. Therefore the theory of imputation of sin means God is both under the law and acts disconcordant to the law. Such actions by God make God into a creature, who acts under law and is judged by law.

2) God’s law becomes a strict measure of human sin against God’s uncompromising righteousness. But simultaneously God’s law is broken by the same righteous, uncompromising God, who makes a fictional legal judgement about the imputation of sin to Jesus, which is itself a breach of law. The intrinsic contradiction within the theory of double imputation invalidates the theory.

3) God’s imputation of sin to Jesus is required to explain why Jesus suffered on the cross. Jesus suffering is His part in removing the just condemnation of God against sinners. Hence suffering caused by men on Jesus removes the breaches of law over the elect. This process means suffering and death removes an imputation of sin to the sinner and places the imputation of righteousness to the sinner. So the application of suffering to Jesus is required to remove the imputation of sin to Jesus, yet there is no legal basis for suffering of one man (be Him the God-man as Jesus) that actually causes God to be moved to impute righteousness to another man. Therefore the theory is based upon a lack of supporting evidence from the law that suffering of another can cause the imputation of righteousness to another. Hence the double imputation theory is merely a fiction invented by the reformers.

4) The legal imputation of sin must be a lawful act by God, for God always acts lawfully. Yet the legal imputation of sin to one who has not sinned is to state with legal force that a someone has breached the law without having done so. Hence the legal imputation of sin to another, is unlawful and cannot be done by the biblical God. Hence the double imputation theory is merely a fiction invented by the reformers apart from the biblical God.

5) God has inverted the natural order of justice and legally imputed sin to one whom is most unworthy of such an act. As the inversion is against the nature of God, the double imputation theory is merely a fiction invented by the reformers apart from the biblical God.

6) The imputation of sin to Jesus is against the divine majesty, which requires that God as the best will always be known by God as the best. By God imputing sin to Jesus, God knows Jesus as something other than the best. Therefore because the double imputation theory is against the majesty of God, the theory is false.

7) The imputation of sin to Jesus causes God to be most unmerciful to Jesus and most merciful to those who do not deserve the mercy. The theory then requires that God’s justice and mercy is said to be consistent with His nature as righteous, but is also most capricious. Capricious for the most just receives the harshest punishment and the most unjust is not punished. The capricious nature of God required in the double imputation theory means the theory is a false theory.

8) God imputing sin to Jesus means God must have acted to impute sin for a time, and then stop imputing sin to Jesus at another time. Such an action by God, means God’s mind about who Jesus is, must have changed. Yet God’s mind never changes. Hence the double imputation theory means God must change His mind about what Jesus is (sinner or God), and is then a false theory.

9) The imputation of sin to Jesus within the theory, is an act of God promoted by those who constructed a systematic theology outside the biblical text. As the reformers acted to construct the new theology, they did so without any legitimate authority or mandate from God to do so. Hence the theory implies that because the Reformers taught the double imputation theory without any regard for divine authority, anyone can give assent or freely chose to dissent from the theory without fear of sinning against God. Yet the Reformers taught the double imputation theory was part of the Gospel. Hence due to the lack of authority associated with the theory, there is no reason to give assent to the theory as actually being the real gospel, other than merely the opinion of those who invented the theory, and those who freely chose to embrace the theory. As the theory is not contained within any divinely authoritative institution, the theory cannot be from God and is therefore most certainly not the gospel as its adherents claim it to be. Hence the double imputation theory is a false theory.

10) The imputation of sin to Jesus is contained within the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Hence faith is not only required to believe Jesus died and rose from the dead to take away men’s sins, but that also Jesus became as sin in our place. The reformed understanding of justification means faith requires men to not only believe Jesus died and rose from the dead, but that God imputed sin to Jesus as part of the cross-resurrection event. But to redefine the cross that requires an imputation of sin to Jesus means the reformers have redefined what it means to have saving faith. Saving faith is changed from the biblical faith in the God of love, who does not deceive, to the nominalist god of Calvin and Luther who require faith to be ordered to giving assent to their own invented theory and not what God has revealed about the redemption in divine revelation. Hence because the double imputation theory requires a false, redefinition of faith, the theory is itself false.

11) Imputation of sin to Jesus means God acts in a non-legal way to legally impute sin to one who does not have sin. Such a non-legal act by God is against the nature of the reformers god, who always acts righteously and therefore legally. Hence the double imputation theory is a false theory which requires God to act against the nature of God as taught by the reformers.

The process if imputing righteousness to sinners infers -

1) Righteousness could easily be infused into the sinner, making the sinner ontologically righteous, but God chose not to do so. As God always acts in the best way to manifest His perfections, the double imputation theory requires that the imputation of Christ’s righteousness must manifest God’s perfections. Yet God’s action requires that He call sinners righteous when they are sinners. Such an act means God’s acting in the manner of a legal fiction promotes the perfections of mercy and righteousness. Yet God’s declaration does neither. For God to act in accord with a legal fiction is to defect from perfection and resemble the imperfection of a sinful creature. Hence the double imputation theory requires that God imitate sinners and not act as the biblical God with divine perfection. Therefore the double imputation theory is false.

2) Biblically righteousness is said to be infused into the sinner as new life through regeneration (Titus 3:5) or law of the Spirit who gives life (Rom 8:2). Such action by God within men, brings about the life of God within men, to help them overcome sin. According to God’s action within men, they are made righteous (Rom 5:19) in the new Adam. The new life within men then makes the double imputation theory both 1) superfluous, for men are regenerated and God does not need to call sinner righteous, and 2) inconsistent with what God does. God makes men righteous and then calls them righteous in accord with His work within men. Hence the double imputation theory is a false theory.

3) Righteousness is imputed to sinners who according to Calvin and Luther did not have free will after the fall. As such, because men do not have free will, sin is not from men’s choice, but from men’s sin nature. Yet for sin to exist without free will is against the nature of sin, which implies a free act by the sinner, by which God then imputes the guilt of sin and the associated punishment. Therefore, for righteousness to be imputed to the sinner, the Calvinist/Lutheran version of what a sinner is, means sin is unjustly imputed to the sinner, who really has not control over his own actions and cannot ever act freely to sin. Therefore, because the double imputation theory requires a false understanding of the nature of sin, righteousness imputed to the sinner by God is both unnecessary and a false solution to a false problem. As such, the double imputation theory is a false theory.

4) Righteousness is imputed to sinners, whereby the sinner remains a sinner. Thus righteousness is only ever credited to an account and not infused within the sinner to make the sinner into a saint. Yet it is said that the sinner is fit for heaven, for the sinner has been saved from sin by Jesus within the double imputation theory. The justice the sinner has imputed is the same justice the sinner will have when he gets to heaven. Yet biblically nobody will ever see God unless he is holy. As such, righteousness in heaven cannot be an extrinsic righteousness imputed to the sinner, but must be a righteousness infused within the sinner, making the man into a holy saint, fit for entrance into heaven. The legal imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the sinners account only has any application if the sinner is infused with grace and the Holy Spirit. Yet such is the doctrine of infused righteousness of the Catholic Church, which was rejected by the Reformers. As such, the double imputation theory is inconsistent with the nature of heaven and therefore false.

5) Righteousness is imputed to sinners by faith alone, yet faith is never discussed as being perfect or imperfect, like the strict requirements of keeping the law. Hence within the double imputation theory, God requires perfection within the law, but nothing is said about the perfection or imperfection of faith, which could be quite imperfect, for the sinner remains a sinner and must always acts with an imperfect intention - as Calvin taught. Yet if faith is perfect, then men can do perfect acts pleasing to God, whilst remaining sinners. If imperfect, then imperfect human acts are pleasing to God, contrary to the requirements of the law as taught by Calvinism.

The nature of faith within the double imputation theory is contrary to the nature of all other human acts within the theory that are said to be as dung before the Holy God. Yet God is somehow satisfied with only faith, regardless of its imperfection. For it is well recorded in history that many Protestants had faith, then lost faith, inferring faith was at some time imperfect. So the double imputation theory teaches imperfect human acts are unlawful and therefore sinful, but permits imperfect human acts of faith which save, whilst God always requires perfection within the law. Evidently the double imputation theory is eclectic regarding the nature of human acts as imperfect which both cause condemnation and justification. Therefore the theory is false trough the fallacy of eclecticism.

Comment - The entire process of imputing sin to Jesus, imputing righteousness to sinners, all done by faith alone, to sinners who do not have free will is almost completely false. Perhaps the only two truths that are contained within the theory are Jesus died and rose from the dead. Even so, these two truths are contained within a theory that is so false, that the Jesus who died and rose from the dead, did so for false reasons, making the cross a fiction that achieved nothing.

JM
 
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sixpointer

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One must have a standard from which to argue. Yours is Roman Catholicism (RC). Christ's authority that He used was the Scriptures as you will find as you read the Gospel accounts and of course at that that time it was the OT. It is written. As much as logic is very important, it does not supersede the Scriptures as the final authority as in the case for example with the doctrine of the Trinity. Now, you find fault with the teaching of Justification by Faith Alone (JBFA) and it is the alone part that you are against. You say that 'alone' is not Biblical however it is. You see, there is no conflict between Paul and James. Paul says that no one can be justified by keeping the law. James speaks of justification in another sense when he speaks of works to say that works in the life of a Christian provide proof (justification) that their JBFA is authentic. It is the work ALONE of Christ that justifies a person and this is accessed by faith alone. Nor does this faith originate with man. It is a gift from God (Ephesians 2) as is godly repentance! Salvation is of God! This is why it is important to see that regeneration (John 3, Eph. 1,2) procede faith and repentance. Regeneration does not come about through the immediate work of the Holy Spirit in the soul of man. You are against JBFA yet this is the very way that Abraham was brought into a right relationship with God: Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Not infused or imparted but imputed or accounted. So, yes, a positional sanctification is true of all who are born of the Spirit of God and the same ones will give evidence that their JBFA is true by their fruit or progressive sanctification.
 
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corinth77777

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Wow! Would like someone to disprove this thought...

If they can with scripture.

It is the faith of Christ that saves
But why alone?
Do we read into, or replace word meaning, because we misunderstand "not by any works of righteousness we have done"
Is that it or is there some other scripture I am missing why people say faith alone?

The way I see is, and correct me if I'm wong,
"Not by works of righteousness we have done", would have been a direct relationship of ourselves to the law....Another words there is no way man can be justified by his flesh, or through his flesh.

Which then would make it the faith of Christ or faithfulness of Christ....which was his obedience unto the father unto death that we enter into or unto Justification.

Which could mean we enter through his body
In order to be justified by his faith[which is the same type of faith we have] obedience unto death[dying daily even]

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Verse 10
We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works

Verse 10 there is where we are Justified
When it says "unto good works"

Verse 18 For through him we both have access by one spirit unto the Father.

what happens when one has access to the father after going through the son...
We ACT IN OBEDIENCE?.....we act in Faith, love and follow the Spirit? And then cleansing takes effect by the Father? And the out come is Good works?

So, back to main point: we are not saved through our own works unto Justification.
We are saved through Christ's works unto justification.

Christ's work was his Faith...He obeyed his father unto death....He obeyed and his father did the work.
And we believe in the resurrection unto salvation through Love.....Faith working through love
Therefore Christ's Faith is at work when we Love....[same faith he had then we must have]

For by grace are ye saved through faith
And being "saved through faith of Christ"
Is not of yourself...you are not saved through yourself....to be saved through the faith of Christ or faithfulness of Christ is "the gift of God"

My thoughts only study for yourself...
 
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corinth77777

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Wow! Would like someone to disprove this thought...

If they can with scripture.

It is the faith of Christ that saves
But why alone?
Do we read into, or replace word meaning, because we misunderstand "not by any works of righteousness we have done"
Is that it or is there some other scripture I am missing why people say faith alone?

The way I see is, and correct me if I'm wong,
"Not by works of righteousness we have done", would have been a direct relationship of ourselves to the law....Another words there is no way man can be justified by his flesh, or through his flesh.

Which then would make it the faith of Christ or faithfulness of Christ....which was his obedience unto the father unto death that we enter into or unto Justification.

Which could mean we enter through his body
In order to be justified by his faith[which is the same type of faith we have] obedience unto death[dying daily even]

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Verse 10
We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works

Verse 10 there is where we are Justified
When it says "unto good works"

Verse 18 For through him we both have access by one spirit unto the Father.

what happens when one has access to the father after going through the son...
We ACT IN OBEDIENCE?.....we act in Faith, love and follow the Spirit? And then cleansing takes effect by the Father? And the out come is Good works?

So, back to main point: we are not saved through our own works unto Justification.
We are saved through Christ's works unto justification.

Christ's work was his Faith...He obeyed his father unto death....He obeyed and his father did the work.
And we believe in the resurrection unto salvation through Love.....Faith working through love
Therefore Christ's Faith is at work when we Love....[same faith he had then we must have]

For by grace are ye saved through faith
And being "saved through faith of Christ"
Is not of yourself...you are not saved through yourself....to be saved through the faith of Christ or faithfulness of Christ is "the gift of God"

My thoughts only study for yourself...
How about its through Christ alone unto justification....for his faith was a credit to
Or something to go towards Justification...
And how many times was Abraham said to be justified?

Abraham Believed God. But how?
I believe just like Jesus He obeyed God...
Walked by faith ...as Christ did, being obedient to the father unto death.
 
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sixpointer

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Ok so it is the Father who has planned, the Son accomplished redemption and the Holy Spirit applies the very same redemption. One the cross, Christ suffered to make a full and final payment for all of God's elect. It was penal, vicarious, propitiatory and substitutionary. Need to get to grips with each of those facets which constitute the whole 'diamond' of the atonement. Now, when the Holy Spirit regenerates the individual this person (at some point) is godly repentance and faith to exercise toward Christ. Now in the exercise of this said faith, it (faith) IS the instrument by which Christ's righteousness is imputed or accounted, and this only occurs because of acquittal: no longer guilty due to The benefits of Christ's substitutionary work have been transferred to the persons account so to speak. So the person is JBFA by Christ alone ie NOT Christ plus my work. In fact there are 5 alones. Scripture, Christ, grace, faith, God's glory. Each stands alone. Nothing can and must be added. Now, whilst a person is JBFA APART from the works of that person, justification NEVER remains alone ie following on from justification is progressive sanctification. This is life long. Now whereas the person is passive in regeneration not so sanctification in which the Christian works out their salvation... for it is God who is WORKING in... There are lots of different deviant paths from this teaching sadly.
 
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corinth77777

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How about its through Christ alone unto justification....for his faith was a credit to
Or something to go towards Justification...
And how many times was Abraham said to be justified?

Abraham Believed God. But how?
I believe just like Jesus He obeyed God...
Walked by faith ...as Christ did, being obedient to the father unto death.
I personally believe from the context of scriptures I read in Ephesians 2 that the word, "through" is the better preposition to use.

We are saved through

We are not saved through our nature
We are saved through the "faith of Christ"

So what is the washing of regeneration and renewal of the holy spirit.

Because:
We are saved through, by or because of.
I think one must go back to the Law and pharasees to find out.

*Before what was their covering? Pure animal sacrifice in order to stay in right standing to continue in the law.?

Yet what did the pharasee see as their right standing? Question

*so the washing is through the gospel
because of his faith/or faithfulness to God. His body and pure blood. And we are renewed by the spirit because of this cleanse that frees our hearts and mind to serve a true and living God in works he has already prepared for us to do. [through the resurrection]
And in doing these we stay under the umbrella of his Love....

So that is how I see the washing of regeneration

Believing or continual belief in Jesus Christ
[which emphasized resurrected Christ of one whose body took on our payment of our sins]

Which would be the washing of regeneration
to be born from above one must go through
The one that comes from above.

And hold up to the standards of the law through love. (Renwal of the spirit)
Renwal of the spirit of the one you came through. Jesus had an obedient spirit, spirit of love.
The spirit is renewed as we walk in his love.
Walk=setting your mind to things of the Holy Spirit-to that which is unseen therefore eternal.
We only set our minds to this, because he has set our minds free from sin and guilt before God.....the outcome is Justification through sanctification by His Justification.
 
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corinth77777

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Read Romans 8


Ok so it is the Father who has planned, the Son accomplished redemption and the Holy Spirit applies the very same redemption. One the cross, Christ suffered to make a full and final payment for all of God's elect. It was penal, vicarious, propitiatory and substitutionary. Need to get to grips with each of those facets which constitute the whole 'diamond' of the atonement. Now, when the Holy Spirit regenerates the individual this person (at some point) is godly repentance and faith to exercise toward Christ. Now in the exercise of this said faith, it (faith) IS the instrument by which Christ's righteousness is imputed or accounted, and this only occurs because of acquittal: no longer guilty due to The benefits of Christ's substitutionary work have been transferred to the persons account so to speak. So the person is JBFA by Christ alone ie NOT Christ plus my work. In fact there are 5 alones. Scripture, Christ, grace, faith, God's glory. Each stands alone. Nothing can and must be added. Now, whilst a person is JBFA APART from the works of that person, justification NEVER remains alone ie following on from justification is progressive sanctification. This is life long. Now whereas the person is passive in regeneration not so sanctification in which the Christian works out their salvation... for it is God who is WORKING in... There are lots of different deviant paths from this teaching sadly.
Sounds good to me......
 
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sixpointer

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I personally believe from the context of scriptures I read in Ephesians 2 that the word, "through" is the better preposition to use.

We are saved through

We are not saved through our nature
We are saved through the "faith of Christ"

So what is the washing of regeneration and renewal of the holy spirit.

Because:
We are saved through, by or because of.
I think one must go back to the Law and pharasees to find out.

*Before what was their covering? Pure animal sacrifice in order to stay in right standing to continue in the law.?

Yet what did the pharasee see as their right standing? Question

*so the washing is through the gospel
because of his faith/or faithfulness to God. His body and pure blood. And we are renewed by the spirit because of this cleanse that frees our hearts and mind to serve a true and living God in works he has already prepared for us to do. [through the resurrection]
And in doing these we stay under the umbrella of his Love....

So that is how I see the washing of regeneration

Believing or continual belief in Jesus Christ
[which emphasized resurrected Christ of one whose body took on our payment of our sins]

Which would be the washing of regeneration
to be born from above one must go through
The one that comes from above.

And hold up to the standards of the law through love. (Renwal of the spirit)
Renwal of the spirit of the one you came through. Jesus had an obedient spirit, spirit of love.
The spirit is renewed as we walk in his love.
Walk=setting your mind to things of the Holy Spirit-to that which is unseen therefore eternal.
We only set our minds to this, because he has set our minds free from sin and guilt before God.....the outcome is Justification through sanctification by His Justification.

Cori, regeneration is another word for born again and means new life. John tells us that such ones are born of the Holy Spirit of God. It is God who give life. He is the Creator and (spiritual) recreator. So, for me, it was me who cried out to the Lord. He heard my prayer and I knew He had saved me and I started attending a church where the Bible was faithfully taught. Wow. It was like going to Heaven (so to speak), I mean this was the first time I had opened the Bible and heard a sermon... anyway my point really is that it was approx. 6 months later that I was surveying things leading up to my conversion to Christ and from the Scriptures began to understand that regeneration precedes conversion. The effect that this had was very humbling and my thiought was and is well, why me? Why would God shower His regenerating love on me? Romans 3 tells us that there are none righteous so I knew it was not because I some how deserved it. Eph. 1 tells us that it is according to His good pleasure to save whomsoever He will. To God be the glory!
 
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JohnMartin

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One must have a standard from which to argue. Yours is Roman Catholicism (RC). Christ's authority that He used was the Scriptures as you will find as you read the Gospel accounts and of course at that that time it was the OT. It is written. As much as logic is very important, it does not supersede the Scriptures as the final authority as in the case for example with the doctrine of the Trinity. Now, you find fault with the teaching of Justification by Faith Alone (JBFA) and it is the alone part that you are against. You say that 'alone' is not Biblical however it is. You see, there is no conflict between Paul and James. Paul says that no one can be justified by keeping the law. James speaks of justification in another sense when he speaks of works to say that works in the life of a Christian provide proof (justification) that their JBFA is authentic. It is the work ALONE of Christ that justifies a person and this is accessed by faith alone. Nor does this faith originate with man. It is a gift from God (Ephesians 2) as is godly repentance! Salvation is of God! This is why it is important to see that regeneration (John 3, Eph. 1,2) procede faith and repentance. Regeneration does not come about through the immediate work of the Holy Spirit in the soul of man. You are against JBFA yet this is the very way that Abraham was brought into a right relationship with God: Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Not infused or imparted but imputed or accounted. So, yes, a positional sanctification is true of all who are born of the Spirit of God and the same ones will give evidence that their JBFA is true by their fruit or progressive sanctification.

Faith alone theology is an invention of the Reformation. Faith is a virtue to believe all that God has told man. Hope is a virtue to desire what God has promised. And love is a virtue to desire God above all things. Hope and love immediately follow faith. Hence faith is never alone. Therefore the Reformation teaching of faith alone is false, and the Reformation is a human invention which is also false.

JM
 
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corinth77777

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Cori, regeneration is another word for born again and means new life. John tells us that such ones are born of the Holy Spirit of God. It is God who give life. He is the Creator and (spiritual) recreator. So, for me, it was me who cried out to the Lord. He heard my prayer and I knew He had saved me and I started attending a church where the Bible was faithfully taught. Wow. It was like going to Heaven (so to speak), I mean this was the first time I had opened the Bible and heard a sermon... anyway my point really is that it was approx. 6 months later that I was surveying things leading up to my conversion to Christ and from the Scriptures began to understand that regeneration precedes conversion. The effect that this had was very humbling and my thiought was and is well, why me? Why would God shower His regenerating love on me? Romans 3 tells us that there are none righteous so I knew it was not because I some how deserved it. Eph. 1 tells us that it is according to His good pleasure to save whomsoever He will. To God be the glory!
Faith alone theology is an invention of the Reformation. Faith is a virtue to believe all that God has told man. Hope is a virtue to desire what God has promised. And love is a virtue to desire God above all things. Hope and love immediately follow faith. Hence faith is never alone. Therefore the Reformation teaching of faith alone is false, and the Reformation is a human invention which is also false.

JM
Its all in the interpretation behind the meaning....and how the telephone[how people retell a truth..or non truth

I myself havent study the reformed Ideal...
But I have a feeling they were not too far off
But that people interpreted their thoughts wrong.
I can see how the meaning of "alone" applied
By, that we go through Jesus's faith alone.[his body he presented as a sacrifice by obeying the father] in order to be Justified by his Spirit.........Its his death alone...and resurrection that is the "only" doorway
 
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sixpointer

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Faith alone theology is an invention of the Reformation. Faith is a virtue to believe all that God has told man. Hope is a virtue to desire what God has promised. And love is a virtue to desire God above all things. Hope and love immediately follow faith. Hence faith is never alone. Therefore the Reformation teaching of faith alone is false, and the Reformation is a human invention which is also false.

JM

Your argument there is based on RC teaching.

The standard which Jesus used in confronting the devil was the OT Scriptures: it is written! The standard He used to prove who He was (Luke 24) was the very same standard! The O and N testaments are the full and final standard.

You say faith alone is false. Consider: 1) I have NOT said that faith alone is the sum of all Christian teaching. It is not. However it is faith as the instrument (supplied by God) see Eph. 2 which the regenerated person exercises toward Christ which brings acquittal before God. Hence, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness! This is the only was that any soul has ever come into a right relationship with God. Now true saving faith is NEVER alone and what follows is works. Works (Eph. 2) are prepared beforehand by God but works do not add to my justification before God rather they prove that my justification is authentic since faith without works is dead!

You must step back from RC and see that it is a system built on a faulty and dangerously poor foundation. My hope is in Christ alone. The RC person has to hope that each and every administering of the RC rites is authentic otherwise they were not valid and that according to RC admissions eg refer to Trent in its many pronouncements.
 
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Your argument there is based on RC teaching.

The standard which Jesus used in confronting the devil was the OT Scriptures: it is written! The standard He used to prove who He was (Luke 24) was the very same standard! The O and N testaments are the full and final standard.

There is nothing in the scriptures that says the O and N testaments are the full and final standard.

You say faith alone is false. Consider: 1) I have NOT said that faith alone is the sum of all Christian teaching. It is not. However it is faith as the instrument (supplied by God) see Eph. 2 which the regenerated person exercises toward Christ which brings acquittal before God. Hence, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness! This is the only was that any soul has ever come into a right relationship with God. Now true saving faith is NEVER alone and what follows is works. Works (Eph. 2) are prepared beforehand by God but works do not add to my justification before God rather they prove that my justification is authentic since faith without works is dead!

You must step back from RC and see that it is a system built on a faulty and dangerously poor foundation. My hope is in Christ alone. The RC person has to hope that each and every administering of the RC rites is authentic otherwise they were not valid and that according to RC admissions eg refer to Trent in its many pronouncements.

There is no evidence in the NT that faith is an instrument. The notion of faith as an instrument is a Reformation invention linked into the false theory of penal substitution.

You do not have hope in Christ alone, for the work of God is always Trinitarian and not unitarian as the word "alone" infers. Every time a man speaks of faith alone theology, he opens himself to simple refutations such as those given above.

JM
 
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sixpointer

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There is nothing in the scriptures that says the O and N testaments are the full and final standard.



There is no evidence in the NT that faith is an instrument. The notion of faith as an instrument is a Reformation invention linked into the false theory of penal substitution.

You do not have hope in Christ alone, for the work of God is always Trinitarian and not unitarian as the word "alone" infers. Every time a man speaks of faith alone theology, he opens himself to simple refutations such as those given above.

JM

Again it is you RC teaching coming through, a teaching that says one can be regenerated and this through the RC rite of baptism) but commit mortal sin and when not absolved upon deeath go to Hell! Add to that that if the priest does not have the required intent then the rite was invalid anyway and so you've lost what you thought you have even though you thought it was restord through the official grace conduit of RC.

Re the Old and New Testament, note Christ used the standard: the OT which was the complete canon for the time. Never once did Christ or anyone ever quote from any prophet during the inter testamental period. There is an anathema to anyone who adds or takes away from God's word. God's word is sufficient. You obviously do not believe that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Christ invited people to come DIRECTLY to Him. I did and afterward I understood that it was His regenerating love that was the reason why I did. God is good!
 
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JohnMartin

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Again it is you RC teaching coming through, a teaching that says one can be regenerated and this through the RC rite of baptism) but commit mortal sin and when not absolved upon deeath go to Hell! Add to that that if the priest does not have the required intent then the rite was invalid anyway and so you've lost what you thought you have even though you thought it was restord through the official grace conduit of RC.

Re the Old and New Testament, note Christ used the standard: the OT which was the complete canon for the time. Never once did Christ or anyone ever quote from any prophet during the inter testamental period. There is an anathema to anyone who adds or takes away from God's word. God's word is sufficient. You obviously do not believe that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Christ invited people to come DIRECTLY to Him. I did and afterward I understood that it was His regenerating love that was the reason why I did. God is good!

Faith alone theology is only found in James 2:24 where it explicitly denied. Faith alone theology is an invention of men.

The word of God is reduced to scripture by the reformers even though the phrase does not ever only refer to the scriptures.

Moses seat is an authority from God in the OT that was binding and found in the intertestamental period. See Matt 23:1-3 for details.

JM
 
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Faith alone theology is only found in James 2:24 where it explicitly denied. Faith alone theology is an invention of men.

The word of God is reduced to scripture by the reformers even though the phrase does not ever only refer to the scriptures.

Moses seat is an authority from God in the OT that was binding and found in the intertestamental period. See Matt 23:1-3 for details.

JM

You are mistaken re faith alone and the first it is seen is with Abraham whose right standing before was brought about by believing God with accounted (imputation of righteousness). James shows that true faith is PROVEN by works but he is not denying the teaching of JBFA. You misunderstand this. RC say that the NT and OT are the word of God, they say that this does NOT constitute the full revelation of God. Now logic will tell you that there is no inaccuracy with God so I invite you to use the 66 books as the standard from which to test the authenticity of the RC additions and said infallible statements from RC including Trent. You will find that Trent is in severe opposition to the 66 books if you are willing to use the Scriptures as the standard even as Jesus did. The word of God: yes, Jesus appealed to the WRITTEN Scriptures! The Bereans were COMMENDED. Why? Check out the Bereans use of the standard. Isaiah appealed to the standard. RC has usurped the place of God and the Scriptures. Yours is a fight against God. You have to trust that the RC have got it all right for you personally, the three requirements for baptism all absolutely essential: Trent says they are! My hope is directly in Christ. I love Him because He first loved me. It was not through the RC I came to faith in Christ. It is Scripture alone, Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone and for the glory of God alone. May God have mercy on your soul by His sovereign power for His honour and your good.
 
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