Problems understanding the Trinity

[razeontherock]

Are you saying there is one God who reveals himself in various ways to mankind depending upon what he is doing? He may reveal himself as Jesus for this situation, as the Holy Spirit for another situation, etc. 1 God 3 different hats if you will; is that what you mean? If so that makes sence.

BINGO! Holy Spirit as current King, who also testifies of Jesus. Jesus who leads us to the Father, and is the aspect of G-d that did all the making. The Father being the master designer, KJV "creating." Confusing terminology that can be considered "keys of understanding."

　
(reply) I know many Catholics will pray to Mary and various saints; even though they don't worship them as God or claim them to be equal to God.

Catholic teaching is that they don't pray to Saints. They ask them to pray on their behalf, just like I might walk up to a fellow believer with a prayer request. but don't get distracted by this sidebar issue, the above is what you were looking for!?

 

[elopez]

Are you kidding me??? You did it again! You ignored the question I asked and answered a question I didn’t even ask. Dude if you don’t wanna answer the question, that’s fine! Just be straight-up about it and say so. Obviously you aren’t going to answer my question so let’s move on.

Nope. I've answered your question, you just refuse to accept the dissimilarity in your analogy. What's obvious is that that is what you are going to neglect. Again, just because you make up an analogy doesn't necessarily mean one has to automatically adhere to it. The analogy can be challenged according to the similarities or dissimilarities. Do you know what the fallacy of false analogy is? Yes, twins brothers aren't always equal in attributes and nature.

You’ve got my question wrong again. Think of it as 3 questions; first give me a definition of “person” NEXT give me a definition of “God” (not a particular person or a particular God) then let’s see how those two definitions are different or similar.

I don't see how I got your question wrong or how I ever got it wrong again as you asked,"How are you defining the difference between a person and a God?" I don't think I could put it any other way -- there is no difference between a person of the Trinity and God. The person is God, each person is fully God. Now again, how does that antecedent response not answer the bolded question you asked? So do you now understand how contrasting the definition of a person and God simply cannot be done, because there is no difference in nature or attributes? Or are you going to neglect that as well? The only difference is in their roles, as I've explained this about two or three times now. There is no difference in their natures or attributes as each is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, eternal, etc. That is the definition of a person and God, so think about it.

giving a foundation of the trinity is not the same as confirming all the claims of the trinity are true.

And that's also not something I have claimed or said I was arguing for. I have said the scriptures give a clear foundation of understanding the doctrine, nothing more and nothing less.

No. How about if you look them up and give me a brief about what they say.

I've already gave a brief on what one of them says which is more than enough to show that the person Christ is fully God. Seriously, you have more than showed your unwillingness to participate in a reasonable dialogue as I have previously gave you the full verse. You ask for scripture and then once given you refuse to consider it or much less take the time to Google the one or few verses given? It really does show that you ask these questions insincerely.

 

[Ken-1122]

When I said: “Are you saying there is one God who reveals himself in various ways to mankind depending upon what he is doing? He may reveal himself as Jesus for this situation, as the Holy Spirit for another situation, etc. 1 God 3 different hats if you will; is that what you mean? If so that makes sence.”

Razontherock replied (quote) “BINGO! Holy Spirit as current King, who also testifies of Jesus. Jesus who leads us to the Father, and is the aspect of G-d that did all the making. The Father being the master designer, KJV "creating." Confusing terminology that can be considered "keys of understanding."”

(reply) Thank-you. That does make sense. Drich0150 also had a similar perception of the trinity as well. I guess an analogy would be myself being seen as an employee to my employer, an athlete to the folks at the gym and a son to my parents. Even though I am known as Ken the employee at work, Ken the athlete at the Gym, and ken the son to my parents; I am perceived/revealed differently to different people according to what they know me for.

Elopez (quote) “Nope. I've answered your question, you just refuse to accept the dissimilarity in your analogy. What's obvious is that that is what you are going to neglect. Again, just because you make up an analogy doesn't necessarily mean one has to automatically adhere to it. The analogy can be challenged according to the similarities or dissimilarities. Do you know what the fallacy of false analogy is? Yes, twins brothers aren't always equal in attributes and nature.

(reply) The following is a synopsis of our conversation concerning this analogy:

(Me) Hypothetically speaking; IF I had a twin brother and IF we had the same nature, would you consider us the same?
(You) No! because you guys wouldn’t have the same nature
(Me) No! I said if we DID have the same nature!
(You) I know but I know twins and they don’t always have the same nature so your analogy is flawed!
(Me) I don’t have a twin either! But in my hypothetical I do and we are of the same nature; would you consider us the same person?
(you) As I said before, No! because you wouldn’t have the same nature
(me) I give up!

(quote) “I don't think I could put it any other way -- there is no difference between a person of the Trinity and God. The person is God, each person is fully God. Now again, how does that antecedent response not answer the bolded question you asked?

(reply) If God is a person, then you either have 1 person and 1 God, or you have 3 people and 3 Gods; you can’t have it both ways

Ken

 

[elopez]

The following is a synopsis of our conversation concerning this analogy:

(Me) Hypothetically speaking; IF I had a twin brother and IF we had the same nature, would you consider us the same?
(You) No! because you guys wouldn’t have the same nature
(Me) No! I said if we DID have the same nature!
(You) I know but I know twins and they don’t always have the same nature so your analogy is flawed!
(Me) I don’t have a twin either! But in my hypothetical I do and we are of the same nature; would you consider us the same person?
(you) As I said before, No! because you wouldn’t have the same nature
(me) I give up!

I still think you are missing it. I am not saying each person is the same person but the same one God. So even if you and your hypothetical twin had the exact same nature and were the same person, that is still dissimilar to the actual doctrine of the Trinity as it states each person of the Trinity is not the same person but the same God. You and your twin that has the same nature would exist as the same what? What same one being would you both exist as? You would both exist as the same person yes but that is also where the analogy is flawed because again Christ is not Holy Spirit is not God the Father. There is more than that one flaw I pointed out earlier about you and the twin not having the same nature, I was just point the most obvious one out.

If God is a person, then you either have 1 person and 1 God, or you have 3 people and 3 Gods; you can’t have it both ways.

Now, where is the logic to support this, because I don't see any logic here at all? I don't want it either way. I am saying there are three persons in one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each person is the same one God as each person has the same attributes, nature, and substance as the one God. Consider this. God is solitary, He is one. If these three persons have the same nature as the one God, that means they want to accomplish the same purpose, as I said this was the salvation of man. There is one savior God, one salvation made manifest in Christ, and accessible because of the Holy Spirit.

If all three persons want to accomplish the same one purpose then there is no conflict or disagreement on how to bring salvation about in man or that it should be brought about at all. Now if we are under a polytheistic view and want to say the Trinity is three persons and three Gods, the three Gods would not be the same one God but three different Gods and thus would have different natures and so would have that conflict and disagreement between them. Again if all three persons have the same nature, there is no conflict amongst them but all are in accordance with each others nature and thus, the same one God.

 

[Ken-1122]

Elopez (quote) I still think you are missing it. I am not saying each person is the same person but the same one God. So even if you and your hypothetical twin had the exact same nature and were the same person……..”

(reply)In my analogy I never said anything about being the same person; why did you add that in there?

Next when I said: “”If God is a person, then you either have 1 person and 1 God, or you have 3 people and 3 Gods; you can’t have it both ways

Elopez replied (quote) “Now, where is the logic to support this, because I don't see any logic here at all?”

(reply) “If God is an intelligent being, and a person is an intelligent being; you can’t be one being and three beings at the same time.”

Ken

 

[elopez]

In my analogy I never said anything about being the same person; why did you add that in there?

Oh, so what I'm about to quote must be from your twin brother then: "If I had a twin brother and we had the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature; meaning we share the same qualities and character, would you consider us the same person? Of course not! Having exact qualities does not make you the same person." So yeah, you obviously have not been paying attention much throughout this conversation because you cannot even recall your own argument. You did say something about being the same person, and I didn't add a thing.

“If God is an intelligent being, and a person is an intelligent being; you can’t be one being and three beings at the same time.”

None of this logic follows from premise to conclusion. What other premises do you have to relate this conclusion to, because God being intelligent and the persons of the Trinity having the same intelligence doesn't show how the three persons cannot be the same one God.

 

[Ken-1122]

Elopez (quote) “Oh, so what I'm about to quote must be from your twin brother then: "If I had a twin brother and we had the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature; meaning we share the same qualities and character, would you consider us the same person? Of course not! Having exact qualities does not make you the same person." So yeah, you obviously have not been paying attention much throughout this conversation because you cannot even recall your own argument. You did say something about being the same person, and I didn't add a thing.”

(reply)You are making my point by quoting me! My analogy is as follows:
If I had a twin brother and we had the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature; meaning we share the same qualities and character;
Now that’s the end of my analogy! I then ask you a question: “Would you consider us the same person? Of course not!”
Then you reply to my question saying: If you and your twin had the same nature and were the same person…..
Now do you see where you went wrong?
Next when I said: “If God is an intelligent being, and a person is an intelligent being; you can’t be one being and three beings at the same time.””

Elopez replied (quote) “None of this logic follows from premise to conclusion. What other premises do you have to relate this conclusion to, because God being intelligent and the persons of the Trinity having the same intelligence doesn't show how the three persons cannot be the same one God.”

(reply) As I said before; you can’t be 1 being, and 3 beings at the same time. Now if that doesn’t make any sense to you, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

As I said before; you can’t be 1 being, and 3 beings at the same time.

You are right. This is part of the Creeds, that Jesus is "of one being with the Father." I think this idea is also shown via all 7 Spirits of the Lord being represented by fire.

 

[Ken-1122]

Hello.

I did confirm that "elohim" is the three-or-more plural form of "god" and that it is often used to refer to YHWH using my BDB and a copy of the Biblia Hebraica.


Taran

So does this suggest polytheism?

K

 

[razeontherock]

Nope It's Trinity in Scripture. Not being Hebrew, we miss a lot.

 

[Harry3142]

Ken-1122-

The doctrine of the triune nature of God is confusing, to say the least. Here are some passages of Scripture that may help you:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

You attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11,NIV)

"God is Spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth." (The Gospel of St. John 4:24,NIV)

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 12:30-32,NIV)

God bless-

 

[elopez]

You are making my point by quoting me! My analogy is as follows:
If I had a twin brother and we had the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature; meaning we share the same qualities and character;
Now that’s the end of my analogy! I then ask you a question: “Would you consider us the same person? Of course not!”
Then you reply to my question saying: If you and your twin had the same nature and were the same person…..
Now do you see where you went wrong?
Next when I said: “If God is an intelligent being, and a person is an intelligent being; you can’t be one being and three beings at the same time.””

I'm not sure you even know what you're earlier post says. You are just all over the place and cannot even concentrate one thing. You just said that in your analogy you were not talking about you and your twin brother being the same person, but I just showed that you were wrong and you did mention that and I did not add it like you said I did. I am not making any point for you, just pointing out that you cannot even recall your own argument as you just claimed you didn't say something you clearly did! You were wrong about me adding something to your analogy and that that something is what is dissimilar in your analogy which makes it fallacious. So the question is not where I went wrong but where you obviously went wrong.

As I said before; you can’t be 1 being, and 3 beings at the same time. Now if that doesn’t make any sense to you, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well, if you cannot support that argument with any subsequent premises why should I agree to it? Why should I even continue conversing being that you falsely accuse me of things and pretend you did not say things you clearly have? That is straight up dishonesty, and I'd rather not partake in it from any angle.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm not sure you even know what you're earlier post says. You are just all over the place and cannot even concentrate one thing. You just said that in your analogy you were not talking about you and your twin brother being the same person, but I just showed that you were wrong and you did mention that and I did not add it like you said I did. I am not making any point for you, just pointing out that you cannot even recall your own argument as you just claimed you didn't say something you clearly did! You were wrong about me adding something to your analogy and that that something is what is dissimilar in your analogy which makes it fallacious. So the question is not where I went wrong but where you obviously went wrong.


.

You can't be as obtuse as you are pretending to be, I think you are just trying to avoid a difficult question. With that said; I think it's time we end this conversation. agree?

Peace
Ken

 

[elopez]

You can't be as obtuse as you are pretending to be, I think you are just trying to avoid a difficult question. With that said; I think it's time we end this conversation. agree?

Peace
Ken

I haven't avoided anything. You are the one avoiding your obvious mistake, and if you cannot admit you made it then yes, it is about time we end this conversation.

 

[Catherineanne]

I’ve never understood the Trinity. According to my understanding, God the father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all 3 separate people but one God. I’ve never had it explained to me in a way that makes sense; perhaps someone here who believes in the trinity can explain it in a way that it does.
Also, which scripture in the Bible actually says the Holy Spirit is God?

Ken

I think, having read some of the answers you have been given, and your reaction to them, the problem is the other way round.

You are trying to make God fit your understanding, and you can't do it, because your understanding is too small. Unless you accept that any God worth having is always going to remain to a large extent beyond our comprehension, and then work from there, you will always struggle with this one.

Any comparison that we make will always be insufficient. Christ calls himself the Light of the World. If we take that at face value, and ask, is he like a candle, or a light bulb, or a lighthouse bulb, the answer is always going to be no, of course not. There is something of light that is comparable with something of Christ in relation to us, but there is nothing of light that defines or constrains who Christ is. Similarly, although we rightly speak of the Trinity, there is nothing of our definition of Trinity that can ever be said to define or constrain who God is.

God is beyond our understanding, and beyond our capacity to define. And yet, knowing that He is so, we can also say that that part of God which works actively in this world; the Creator, can be given a name, apart from the name of God himself. The Creator Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, which Paul tells us is the Spirit of Christ. He dwells in each one of us, and he also dwells wherever life itself is. And for Christians there is more to say; the infinite God himself chose to take on human form, and become one of us; the infinite contained within our own finite, mortal form. And when he did so, like any other person he had a name, and that name is Jesus. Because he was God in human form, he has the title Christ; the Anointed One of God.

Therefore, Christians recognise God in these three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But if you want to see them earlier than in Christianity, then they are all found in Genesis Chapter one. God the Father creates by his word. God the Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, and God the Son walks in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day.

As John rightly tells us, he was in the beginning with God, and without him was not anything made that was made.

Sometimes I am afraid you just have to accept that this is how it is, without understanding fully. After all, if a full understanding of electricity were required before we switch on any lights, we would all have to live in the dark.

 

[Catherineanne]

You can't be as obtuse as you are pretending to be, I think you are just trying to avoid a difficult question. With that said; I think it's time we end this conversation. agree?

Peace
Ken

'You really can't be that thick' ... 'peace'

Nice attitude.

I find it safer never underestimate anyone's capacity not to understand me, given that the failing is just as likely to be on my side, in failing to explain adequately, as on theirs, in failing to understand.

 

[Catherineanne]

So does this suggest polytheism?

K

In relation to some source mythologies underlying Biblical texts, yes; quite possibly. In relation to the faith of Abraham onwards, no.

You might like to consider what is known as the Royal plural. A monarch traditionally refers to him or herself as 'we'. This is in recognition of their dual status; as a person and as a monarch. The person dies, the monarch does not; the status of monarch transfers to the next in line.

When a plural term is used of God, this does not always denote several gods, any more than a plural term of a monarch means more than one monarch.

 

[Catherineanne]

　
(reply) I know many Catholics will pray to Mary and various saints; even though they don't worship them as God or claim them to be equal to God. do you suppose Peter may have considered Jesus and the Holy Ghost in the same way?

No, Peter was present at Pentecost.

And Catholics don't pray to Mary, we pray with Mary. Different thing.

If I were to say to you, 'Will you pray for me?' is that praying to you, or asking your help? You decide.
　

　
(reply) Are you saying there is one God who reveals himself in various ways to mankind depending upon what he is doing? He may reveal himself as Jesus for this situation, as the Holy Spirit for another situation, etc. 1 God 3 different hats if you will; is that what you mean? If so that makes sence. If you mean something different, please explain.

Ken

God as shape shifter? No, not really that.

God is eternal; outside time. He is omnipresent and omnipotent. He is infinite and beyond our understanding. In order to enter eternity, and become one with us, he had to put on something of what it is to be in creation; he had to put on form and substance. He did that when he became man.

When God became man in Christ he was no less omnipresent than before, and no less omnipotent. But in Christ he chose to lay aside his power, in order to experience life as we do. He felt pain and sorrow, and he was able to die. As God, he was also able to overcome death, and choose to rise again, to show us the path whereby we can do the same.

God is omnipresent; everywhere at all times. His Spirit is also omnipresent, everywhere at all times. It is the Spirit of God within us, and working in the world.

Christ's human form is now in eternity, with God. But his Spirit is with us in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God.

 

[Catherineanne]

When I said: “If I had a twin brother and we had the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature; meaning we share the same qualities and character, would you consider us the same person? Of course not! Having exact qualities does not make you the same person.”

Twins do not share substance, essence, attributes or nature. All they share is genetic coding.

Christ does not have the same genetic coding as God. He has 50% from Mary, his mother, possibly more. Nonetheless, he is of the same substance as the Father.

The twin analogy really doesn't get you anywhere, therefore.

 

[Ken-1122]

Razontherock (quote) “Nope It's Trinity in Scripture. Not being Hebrew, we miss a lot.”

(reply) Taran said “Elohim” means multiple Gods; and the Christian God was referred to using that term. If that’s not polytheism, what is it? Also, what are we missing not being Hebrew?

Catherianne (quote) “You are trying to make God fit your understanding, and you can't do it, because your understanding is too small.”

(reply) But the guys who came up with the concept of the trinity understood it; obviously it isn’t humanly impossible to understand

(quote) “When a plural term is used of God, this does not always denote several gods, any more than a plural term of a monarch means more than one monarch.”

(reply) But each person of the monarch is only a fraction of the monarch. Would you say this applies to the Gods of the trinity as well?

(quote) “God is eternal; outside time. He is omnipresent and omnipotent. He is infinite and beyond our understanding. In order to enter eternity, and become one with us, he had to put on something of what it is to be in creation; he had to put on form and substance. He did that when he became man.”

(reply) Doesn’t really explain the trinity but I’ve always wondered about people claiming God exists outside of time; as if time had parameters; that it starts here and ends there and God is somehow able to be outside of it. Maybe I will start another thread and on that issue.

(quote) “Twins do not share substance, essence, attributes or nature. All they share is genetic coding.”

(reply) I realize they usually don’t (but it is possible that they could) But if I had a twin and he did have the same nature as I, would you consider us the same person? Of course not! Just because a person has the same nature does not in any way make them the same person, God, being, etc.
My point being, if you wish to make a point that Jesus, God the father, and the holy spirit are the same, pointing out they have the same nature does not make your point.

Peace
Ken