Problems understanding the Trinity

John Jay · May 8, 2011

drich0150 said:
The Defining qualities of the Father Son and Spirit do not fall under any of these defining qualities of "people."

Is God sentient? Is He knowable? Does He think? Reason? Does He interact?

drich0150 · May 8, 2011

John Jay said:
Is God sentient? Is He knowable? Does He think? Reason? Does He interact?

So your are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the dictionary definition of "people/humans?" Because the word people can be interchanged with the word humans in every instance.

God is not Human. The dictionary defines people (in short) as Human beings. Nowhere in scripture nor in the secular understanding of God and or people are the two ever combined interchangeably.

Hence, God isn't 3 separate people. Or if you prefer God is not three distinct humans. Thinking that He is, puts unbiblical limitations on God and is narrows your possible understanding of Him.

This is important because God is not subject to the same limitations that "people" are. If you will reference any of my previous posts I refer to God as three distinct personalities, Three distinct Beings or Deities. All of which are correct and all of which places "God" above and beyond the limitations of people. This is key in that the limiting factors placed on people Eg. three people can not coexist as one person. does not exist with a deity Supreme being or God's distinct and separate personalities.

If you still insist that God is three individual people then at this point will have to leave you with your thoughts. However if you have questions I will respond.

Ken-1122 · May 8, 2011

John Jay (quote) but having a spirit is different than being a spirit.

(reply) Okay; but God the father is a spirit; right? Do you suppose when they reference the Holy Spirit, they are speaking about God the Father?
Next when I said: How can the three be separate people without Christianity being a monotheistic religion?

Jon Jay replied (quote) Christianity is a monotheistic religion.

(reply) My mistake; I meant Polytheistic religion. If the three are separate beings, how can Christianity be a Polytheistic religion?

Next when I said: The trinity does not consist of 3 separate people, only one personand that one person is God who has 3 separate aspects/natures/duties and to each of his aspects Christians have attached a nickname. They call him the Father when they refer to God governing and maintaining sovereign authority, they call him Jesus when he plays the role of enacting his will, and they call him the Holy Spirit when he empowers, defends and protects.;

Drich0150 replied: (quote) More or less.
One God or deity. Three separate or individual parts.

(reply) Okay now that makes sense. I guess my confusion was, when I hear people talk about the trinity, it sounds like they are talking about three separate beings.

K

drich0150 · May 8, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
(reply) Okay now that makes sense. I guess my confusion was, when I hear people talk about the trinity, it sounds like they are talking about three separate beings.

K

In part from the right perspective they are talking about 3 different beings..

It confusing to say the least.

razeontherock · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
My mistake; I meant Polytheistic religion. If the three are separate beings, how can Christianity be a Polytheistic religion?

These are not 3 separate beings! Hopefully this much is clear? There are certain things we are told are a mystery. It's ok if we don't possess all knowledge ...

A single rope is made of 3 separate strands. And each of those is made up of many individual fibers. This analogy is presented in Scripture, yet it has it's flaws pertaining to Trinity. The early Church used a few other examples from nature that also represent some aspects well, but each example was refuted as being incorrect. For all our understanding and lack of it, we still have this:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:"

This is confirmed in the NT, by no less than Jesus Himself.

elopez · May 9, 2011

The Holy Trinity is three distinct persons in one God. Distinct in their work: The Son was incarnated, crucified, and rose from the dead; The Father established laws and created; The Holy Spirit facilitates salvation to man on earth. Each person does something different.

Each person is one in that they have the same nature. One in substance and essence and attributes. Whatever the Father posses the Son does as the Holy Spirit. They area all co - eternal and co - existent with each other.

elopez · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
My mistake; I meant Polytheistic religion. If the three are separate beings, how can Christianity be a Polytheistic religion?

Three separate beings that share the same nature and substance. Three persons in one God. One God being monotheistic.

Ken-1122 said:
Next when I said: The trinity does not consist of 3 separate people, only one personand that one person is God who has 3 separate aspects/natures/duties and to each of his aspects Christians have attached a nickname. They call him the Father when they refer to God governing and maintaining sovereign authority, they call him Jesus when he plays the role of enacting his will, and they call him the Holy Spirit when he empowers, defends and protects.;

No, the Trinity does consist of three separate persons, not one person. Three persons in one God. They do not have three different natures but the same nature. They are only different in duties, as you say.

elopez · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Even though I didnt look at all 5 pages; of all that I did look at, I couldnt find any that suggested that the Holy Spirit is separate from God the father, but still God himself. Maybe you can find one that does and point it out to me.

I suggested a verse earlier in the thread. 1 Corinthians 2:10-11: "But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the mans spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

Here the text says that the Spirit searches and knows the thoughts of God just as our spirit is the only thing that truly knows ourselves, yet the Spirit is God is it is His. In comparison to our spirit/soul and how it is distinct from our body yet nevertheless in harmony with it. In must of the same way the Holy Spirit is distinct from the God the Father, though as we have noted only in duties or work, and in alliance with the Father's will and nature.

John Jay · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Okay; but God the father is a spirit; right? Do you suppose when they reference the Holy Spirit, they are speaking about God the Father?

No. The Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit who is not the Father.

My mistake; I meant Polytheistic religion. If the three are separate beings, how can Christianity be a Polytheistic religion?

It isn't a polytheistic religion. It's a monotheistic religion. God is only one God = mono.

The trinity does not consist of 3 separate people, only one personand that one person is God who has 3 separate aspects/natures/duties and to each of his aspects Christians have attached a nickname. They call him the Father when they refer to God governing and maintaining sovereign authority, they call him Jesus when he plays the role of enacting his will, and they call him the Holy Spirit when he empowers, defends and protects.;

That's called Sabellianism and is an incorrect view of the nature of God.

John Jay · May 9, 2011

drich0150 said:
So your are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the dictionary definition of "people/humans?"

No, I accept the dictionary definition. I'm just saying that that isn't the only definition.

Because the word people can be interchanged with the word humans in every instance.

Just as I can use the word "automobiles" to refer to all pickup trucks, even though all automobiles are not pickup trucks.

God isn't 3 separate people.

And that's heresy.

Thinking that He is, puts unbiblical limitations on God and is narrows your possible understanding of Him.

I'm OK with a narrow understanding of God as long as it's the correct understanding.

If you will reference any of my previous posts I refer to God as three distinct personalities

Modalism

Three distinct Beings or Deities.

Polytheism.

If you still insist that God is three individual people then at this point will have to leave you with your thoughts.

Bye.

Ken-1122 · May 9, 2011

Razontherock (quote) These are not 3 separate beings! Hopefully this much is clear? There are certain things we are told are a mystery. It's ok if we don't possess all knowledge ...

(reply) The concept of the trinity was made up by the Catholic Church which consists of people like you and I. Why the mystery? If they can understand it, why cant you and I?

Elopez (quote) Each person is one in that they have the same nature. One in substance and essence and attributes. Whatever the Father posses the Son does as the Holy Spirit. They area all co - eternal and co - existent with each other.

(reply) My brother and I are both of the same substance, attributes, as well but we are still different people. If people were to worship us both, they would be worshipping 2 Gods thus it would be a polytheistic religion. How is this different?

(quote) Three separate beings that share the same nature and substance. Three persons in one God. One God being monotheistic..the Trinity does consist of three separate persons, not one person. Three persons in one God. They do not have three different natures but the same nature. They are only different in duties, as you say.

(reply)So would you say each of the beings by themselves represent a fraction of God and when combined they equal a complete God?

Jon Jay (quote) The Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit who is not the Father..It isn't a polytheistic religion. It's a monotheistic religion. God is only one God = mono

(reply) Do you consider each of the three beings a God? If so, how can you worship 3 separate Gods yet call yourself a monotheistic religion? Do you not see the contradiction in your claim?

K

razeontherock · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
The concept of the trinity was made up by the Catholic Church which consists of people like you and I. Why the mystery? If they can understand it, why cant you and I?

Disagreed. This is revelation of G-d.

John Jay · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Do you consider each of the three beings a God?

I consider each of them God, not a god.

If so, how can you worship 3 separate Gods yet call yourself a monotheistic religion?

Again, one God = MONOtheism.

As I believe I've answered your question several times now and as it's growing more and more evident that you're not really interested in what we say, you have the last word.

Ken-1122 · May 9, 2011

When I said: The concept of the trinity was made up by the Catholic Church which consists of people like you and I. Why the mystery? If they can understand it, why cant you and I?
Razontherock replied: (quote) Disagreed. This is revelation of G-d

(reply) So who did G-d reveal it to? Let me guess; the Catholic Church?

Me (quote)"Do you consider each of the three beings a God?"

John Jay (reply) "I consider each of them God, not a god."

Me (quote) "If so, how can you worship 3 separate Gods yet call yourself a monotheistic religion?"

Jon Jay (reply) "Again, one God = MONOtheism.
As I believe I've answered your question several times now and as it's growing more and more evident that you're not really interested in what we say, you have the last word. "

(reply) Conversation over? Well that's okay; I just don't see how you can't see the contridictions in your explanations. Maybe it has something to do with the Faith that you guys are known to employ
Thanks for your explanations

Ken

elopez · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
My brother and I are both of the same substance, attributes, as well but we are still different people. If people were to worship us both, they would be worshipping 2 Gods thus it would be a polytheistic religion. How is this different?

You and your bro may be of the same substance but I'm not so sure you are both equal in attributes. For example are you both strong as each other, or is one stronger than the other? Can one of you see or hear better than the other? I'm willing to bet that there is some difference in attributes between the two of you. See it is different with the Trinity because all three persons are equal in attributes. Each person is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, loving, etc. Each person is not a separate God but the same one God, hence monotheistic. There are not three Gods in one God, but again three persons in one God.

Ken-1122 said:
So would you say each of the beings by themselves represent a fraction of God and when combined they equal a complete God?

No, each person is fully God, not a 'part' or fraction of God.

John Jay · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Conversation over? Well that's okay; I just don't see how you can't see the contridictions in your explanations. Maybe it has something to do with the Faith that you guys are known to employ
Thanks for your explanations

Ken

Sorry, not playing this game. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and answered your questions. Now, it's become clear that you were not asking sincerely.

solarwave · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
But Jesus is no longer human! The physical part of him died on the cross; all that is left is his spirit; so how is Jesus different than God if they are both spirits?

What do you mean by spirit. By spirit I get the idea of a ghost like being which exists within a certain boundaries. This isn't what God the Father is. God the Father has no body and has no spirit in the sense of anything you can point at and say that it is 'Him'. However Jesus exists now I assume it is how other humans will exist after death and that isn't in the same sort of existance that God the Father does, which is as the 'Ground of all Being' or 'Foundation of Reality'. In my opinion of course.

Could it be possible that the Holy Spirit is just another name for God since God is a spirit, and he is holy?

Along with what I said above I think I can also say the the Creator of the Universe is beyond all things and indescribable. While I would like to say that the Father can be known in a personal way, the Holy Spirit is a much closer and immanent being which is within. It is hard to distingish between both though.

Ken-1122 · May 9, 2011

Elopez (quote) Each person is not a separate God but the same one God, hence monotheistic.

(reply) Just because your essence, attributes, and substance might be the same, doesnt mean you are the same; it doesnt make you one.

(quote) There are not three Gods in one God, but again three persons in one God.

(reply) Well if each person is separate, and each person is God, then by definition they are either three separate Gods or they each are a fraction of themselves combined which make them a fraction of God each.

John Jay (quote) Sorry, not playing this game. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and answered your questions. Now, it's become clear that you were not asking sincerely.

(reply) Unfortunately your answers did not make sense. I realize you did the best you could and I appreciate your efforts

Peace
Ken

elopez · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Just because your essence, attributes, and substance might be the same, doesnt mean you are the same; it doesnt make you one.

Care to elaborate how having the same essence, substance, attributes, and nature doesn't mean the persons of the Trinity are not one? Again each person is eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, benevolent. Seems like one to me.

Ken-1122 said:
Well if each person is separate, and each person is God, then by definition they are either three separate Gods or they each are a fraction of themselves combined which make them a fraction of God each.

You must remember what it means for the persons of the Trinity to be separate. It doesn't mean they have different natures, it means their roles are different and that is it. It would only mean there are three separate Gods if they had a different nature, and each a fraction of God only if each person is not fully God. However each person of the Trinity has the same nature and each is fully God, thus it is three persons in one God.

razeontherock · May 9, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
So who did G-d reveal it to? Let me guess; the Catholic Church?

Trinity is revealed throughout the OT. That's quite a bit before the Roman Catholic sect, which really had no place in history before 1054 AD.

Ken-1122 said:
Jon Jay (reply) "Again, one God = MONOtheism.

This really is the point you're having trouble grasping! The portion of Scripture I cut and paste to this effect is so significant it has it's own name ...

Problems understanding the Trinity

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