• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Problem with Election

Status
Not open for further replies.

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,535
4,616
72
Las Vegas
✟364,724.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Getting a "take" on "Election" is just looking for an argument. It will lead to disunity rather than unity among believers. I can imagine that there are unbelievers out there that just want to stir up trouble between Christians by posting such a post as this. Proverbs 6:19
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
got some vids that will fix the problem of election, the problem of free will, the problem of thinking it's all so unfair.... but it's not for the faint of heart


I will watch the videos.
 
  • Like
Reactions: needhugs
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
That's the first half...God already knows your future life.
The second half is that evidently people have free will.
If not, then why bother to evangelize?

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
That is the way God uses to bring in the harvest of His elect.
Paul acknowledges only the elect will obtain the salvation and it is for them that he works.

2 Timothy 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [a]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It comes down to God's freedom to choose or man's freedom to choose. If God is not allowed to choose whom He will save, then He is not sovereign nor is He loving and that makes man sovereign.

And for someone to say that if God has the freedom to choose, that makes Him and unloving God, I would say they have a corrupt view of love.

Thank you for your comments. Great post.
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What is love? Do you love your own children? How about those who by their very instinct always try to harm your children?

The situation is that you can't love both. That's why God is portrayed as a Shepherd. A Shepherd loves only His sheep but not those wolves by their very instinct always try to harm His sheep. For the same reason, there is an end distinction between the weeds and wheat. Not every seed in the field will turn out to be the wheat, some of them will turn out of be the weeds and to be burnt. This is the Bible teaching.

His Elect refers to His sheep or the wheat but not wannabe wolves and weeds. It shows that God knows who is who even before the creation. However it's not lawful or legitimate to bring anyone to Heaven or condemn anyone to hell simply because God knows who is who.

An analogy is if your mayor know for a fact that you are a criminal, is it ok for him to bring you to jail right away? It's not ok in a nation ruled of law. You need to stand an open trial with a defending lawyer and a group of juries. You will be judged by law instead of by the knowledge of your mayor. Or otherwise, it is a lawless realm.

Earth is thus for everyone to show up as who he is, then he will be judged openly and under witnessing. Moreover why do we even need to believe in Jesus Christ if everyone of us will in the end be saved?!

Thanks for your comments. Very insightful!
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
If you are not elect, then your going into the lake of fire, because God will leave you to die in your unbelief. All the world lies in sin and wickedness, under the sway of the devil. All people follow the SATAN, until God shines His light out from within them by making them born of Himself according to His own purpose and will.
You have 2 groups of people, the saved and the unsaved and all believers were once in the unbelieving group, but God showed mercy to you and led you to repentance and gave you the gift of your faith.
That unsaved group is persihing with their minds blinded by Satan.
The saved group receives mercy from the Father, He shines His light out from within them by putting Christ in their heart making them new creations. Satan can not stop God from doing that with His elect, but Satan deceives the minds of them that are persihing, the (non-elect) preventing the light of the gospel from shining on them. The gospel is a spiritual battle for the life of the elect of God who will obtain salvation, not over them that are perishing, who are destined for the fire. It is for the elect of God that He waits patiently, not for those who are doomed to destruction.

2 Corinthians 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟82,714.00
Country
Switzerland
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.


"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101
The doctrine of election presents God as extremely cruel and unjust. Now there are those who have no problem calling God cruel and unjust. Just means that attributing moral evil to God doesn’t affect them since they are assured they are going to Heaven. What it does to God is immaterial for them.

Now many cover this up by diverting attention to his grace to save them. It’s a smoke screen.

Others simply shut down their minds and commit intellectual suicide when it comes to God. They don’t know and have decided they or we cannot know and they don’t care. They no longer want to understand God.

Now I’ve read the repeated defense of this and it is hollow. One can point to all the people God “wonderfully” predetermined for Heaven before they were born but this NEVER changes the fact that this means He predestined some for hell cruelly and unjustly.

What is more, none of the passages they take out of context say that. I know the alternative, that our eternal destiny will be because of our choices is scary, but it’s the only view that lives God.

And make no mistake, no one loves God and is OK with calling Him cruel.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 112358
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟117,598.00
Faith
Christian
2 Peter 3:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This verse many people mangle saying God waits patiently for all people to believe. Peter though is writing to a group of elect persons, that is the audience of the 'us'.
Your election by God comes before your believing.
US is not the unbelieving world who God knows will never believe, it is written to the elect of God who will believe. Why would God wait patiently for those He knows will never believe. See it is not logical. God is longsuffering towards His elect, not willing that any of 'us' elect perish. And this agrees with Christ.

Here Christ tells us about the elect of God, He is not willing that any of them perish, it is the same as what Peter is saying. God has the 99 sheep, and if one wanders gets lost, He goes after that sheep and saves it.
God owns the sheep , they are His, the belong to Him. The elect are His possession, a people He has taken out of all the population of the world to be His

Matthew 18:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
 
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,360
1,748
57
✟92,175.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not really interested in parsing the details for the sake of indulging monergistic propensity. In short, faith is synergistic: GOD enables, man does.

Not according to the Bible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
YOU said OSAS and predestination was taught in the early church.
Never said OSAS. That's not even a valid theological term. It's a made up term by Arminians.

I said Predestination is not only in the early church but the Bible. I guess you missed all those "predestination" statements in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8?
 
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,360
1,748
57
✟92,175.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
On Cheap Grace (this is a bit long for this thread, but well worth considering).

Some people (a lot of people these days) are into a dangerous theology---what has been called “cheap grace.” They want to acknowledge that God is a loving, merciful God but do not want to accept that He is also a just and holy God who will not abide sin and imperfection forever.

I have written about this elsewhere but let me explain a bit on this thread using some famous quotes.
The love and grace of God in Christ for forgiveness and all the other spiritual blessings must continue to be a primary source of praise to God. However, both grace and love have been misinterpreted. "Instead of being an incentive for living a life of holiness, God's love has become an excuse for indulging every base human desire." (Miguel Grave de Peralta)

Cheap grace is that which liberal, nominal Christians espouse. Such people are glad to receive a free pass from condemnation and willingly accept a salvation that does not require repentance or a change in their lifestyles. They are not willing to truly give themselves to the Lord for transformation; they just want off the hook.

But if faith in Jesus Christ is real, it will change a person’s heart and he/she will want to change, will want to please God. However free salvation is, walking with Christ requires everything from us (see Luke 9:23-25 Matthew 10:38-3

According to Holy Writ, Judgment Day, separation of the wheat from the weeds, and the destruction of the weeds will indeed occur. Hell, perdition, the Lake of Fire and eternal separation from God are states of being which actually exist. (Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33).

To deny these truths is to deny and pervert the nature of God, who is not only gracious and loving but also just and holy-- perfect. His ultimate kingdom will be perfect. He will not tolerate sin forever and Satan and his human children will never repent and submit to Christ, indeed they cannot. It is the nature of reality.

Liberal theologians want no possibility that they will be so judged and punished, so they make God over in their own sin-tolerant image. As H. Richard Niebuhr wrote in “The Kingdom of God in America”: “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”

From <i>“The Cost of Discipleship”</i> by the martyred Dietrich Bonhoeffer write this about the liberal idea of “cheap grace”:.
“In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God. (pages 45-46)... Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. 'All for sin could not atone.' Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world's standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin.... Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” (page 47) This kind of deceptive ‘cheap’ grace can send you to hell.

As Luther always insisted: conviction of sin and awareness of the reality of judgment must come first, and then salvation becomes possible through surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Any “cheap grace” short cut prevents true conversion.

Did you mean to post this here. Instead of Justification by Faith Defended?
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Calvinism and Arminianism seem to be the result of people reading and interpreting scriptures to match a pre-existing philosophy posited by man, instead of simply reading the Bible as written.
I read the bible as written. I could not see predestination there.
When I saw the word "predestined" it did take me aback...but from all I had read till then, I knew it had to mean something else.

I felt, and always have from then, that God would like all humanity to be saved -- but, being a just God --- a person has to WANT to be saved. They have to want to be on God's side.

Also, I know persons that were Christian, for example, and then they became JW's. Or VV. Some of it has to do with approaching the bible with preconceived ideas, but not in every case.
 
Upvote 0

98cwitr

Lord forgive me
Apr 20, 2006
20,020
3,474
Raleigh, NC
✟464,904.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
2 Peter 3:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This verse many people mangle saying God waits patiently for all people to believe. Peter though is writing to a group of elect persons, that is the audience of the 'us'.
Your election by God comes before your believing.
US is not the unbelieving world who God knows will never believe, it is written to the elect of God who will believe. Why would God wait patiently for those He knows will never believe. See it is not logical. God is longsuffering towards His elect, not willing that any of 'us' elect perish. And this agrees with Christ.

Here Christ tells us about the elect of God, He is not willing that any of them perish, it is the same as what Peter is saying. God has the 99 sheep, and if one wanders gets lost, He goes after that sheep and saves it.
God owns the sheep , they are His, the belong to Him. The elect are His possession, a people He has taken out of all the population of the world to be His

Matthew 18:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Just to back you up here:

"not willing that any [of you] should perish, but that all [of you] could come to repentance" The greek word here can be translated into "all of some types" or "some of all types"

This is confirmed in 2 Peter 1:1, as we see that Peter's audience are those he most certainly considers reborn believers:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: sdowney717
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Never said OSAS. That's not even a valid theological term. It's a made up term by Arminians.

I said Predestination is not only in the early church but the Bible. I guess you missed all those "predestination" statements in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8?
LOL
Your support is NEVER going to get posted because it doesn't exist!

And I say OSAS because that what everybody says.
Eternal Security
Perseverance of the Saints
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The doctrine of election presents God as extremely cruel and unjust. Now there are those who have no problem calling God cruel and unjust. Just means that attributing moral evil to God doesn’t affect them since they are assured they are going to Heaven. What it does to God is immaterial for them.

Now many cover this up by diverting attention to his grace to save them. It’s a smoke screen.

Others simply shut down their minds and commit intellectual suicide when it comes to God. They don’t know and have decided they or we cannot know and they don’t care. They no longer want to understand God.

Now I’ve read the repeated defense of this and it is hollow. One can point to all the people God “wonderfully” predetermined for Heaven before they were born but this NEVER changes the fact that this means He predestined some for hell cruelly and unjustly.

What is more, none of the passages they take out of context say that. I know the alternative, that our eternal destiny will be because of our choices is scary, but it’s the only view that lives God.

And make no mistake, no one loves God and is OK with calling Him cruel.

Thanks for your comments. If I may retort. If God does not choose us for salvation. How can a sinner who is Dead in Trespasses and Sin, and in bondage to sin and this world be saved?
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,324
791
Los Angeles
✟251,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Getting a "take" on "Election" is just looking for an argument. It will lead to disunity rather than unity among believers. I can imagine that there are unbelievers out there that just want to stir up trouble between Christians by posting such a post as this. Proverbs 6:19
I beg to differ. We as Christians must read & study God's Word, so that we are not deceived. Its okay to take questions or doubts Christians have and address them together. Not to, leaves doubts!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.