I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .
Does she take the child and have a lobotomy performed so that the child can never do anything risky again? This is what you are suggesting God is doing, unbeknowst to the anyone. And this God is supposed to be good.A mother, father, and their children were having a picnic in a small field next to a busy road. Two of their children were playing with a ball, and one accidentally kicked it into the road. The other child ran towards the street to retrieve the ball. The mother immediately sees what is happening and yells "STOP! DON'T GO INTO THE ROAD!" The child, rather distracted by the ball, does not really hear the words of his mother and continues running towards the street. Does a loving mother run after the child and stop them from getting run over by a car?
Calvin has been held by everyone except Calvinists as instrumental in the death of many men and women including torture. That is not fabricating. They really did die and he really was in charge of this. If he had been opposed to it, he would have preached differently.Well, that's odd Dorothy. You accusing someone for fabricating the truth. Your accounts of Calvin murdering Servetus, and Calvin being buried in a unmarked grave. Were false accounts.
Correct. It is an assumption based on a serious of assumptions.People say a person in a fallen state cannot respond to the gospel. But . . . . why does that follow? Seems to me that is simply an assumption.
God does not hand out faith. Does not work that way. How do we know? Because Jesus could not do miracles at a place and at one time blamed the disciples lack of faith for God not being to accomplish something. The men had too little faith. Now if God is responsible for handing out faith, that He handed too little and it was not the fault of the men despite what Jesus said. However, if faith is something we are responsible for, and that is my position for the most part, then it lies in our hands to have faith or not. This is done by how we choose to think. What we spent our mental energy on in guiding our reason. This is what we are told to guard our hearts and minds. There is fruit from what we steer our thining into.No, I find nothing pertaining to what you're suggesting in Scripture. Either we have faith or we don't. If we have faith, it can be measured (or thus quantified).
Yes, in fact it does. God doesn't hand out faith for it to squandered and never retrieved (Hebrews 10).
100% agree. Real faith abides in obedience.
Amen. Hebrews 11 says this very thing! "By faith someone does something!"
Seems to accurately represent the view of some in how they think the sovereignity of God operates. I mean there are examples I can make note of for you. There are those who say God controls the person who is supposedly elected and cannot fail to be saved. He is making them (or some nicer sounding verb) repent and believe. Do you think that God does not control everyone?Is the "God controls everything" a direct quote from someone, or are you being facetious?
There is no indication in the Bible that God does anything but call a man. And God continually, from beginning to end, blames the man for the sin he does. He never blames himself or any "fallen state" that prevents the man from obeying God. Jesus said that we come because God draws. Since the Bible says God loves all men and wants all to come to salvation, we can assume he draws all men at some point in their lives. That is my belief. He does not tweek them so that they can repent. There is no word that God does anything in a man so that he can be saved. It is not there. This is a doctrine of men to relieve them of the responsiblity for their own eternity. Blame God instead. If you read what God said to the first man considering before hand a horrible sin, you will not find that God told that man that he has a sin nature or is fallen or cannot but sin. That is not God's viewpoint of man and sin. God hold each man responsible for the sin they commit. And each man will stand before God and be judged by the deeds done in the body in one way or another. No "fallen nature" mentioned by anyone.I fully understand faith is not comatose. Someone is responding to something. The question is do we respond in our fallen state to the Gospel .
Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.The Bible uses another verb:
Psalm 33:15
he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
This is what I mean. The verse says nothing of the kind. (This is very typical of those who just put in a reference and hope no one really reads it.) And this is a good example of the theology that blames God for men going to hell. For you, it is ultimately God's fault is someone is not saved.Ultimately, by God giving them to Him: John 6
How does God's sovereignty operate? Please provide Scriptures.Seems to accurately represent the view of some in how they think the sovereignity of God operates. I mean there are examples I can make note of for you. There are those who say God controls the person who is supposedly elected and cannot fail to be saved. He is making them (or some nicer sounding verb) repent and believe. Do you think that God does not control everyone?
Don't think she said such a thing. Unless you believe Grace is a hand out? It is called a gift.God does not hand out faith.
How does it exactly work? How do we earn faith?Does not work that way
98said:Don't think she said such a thing. Unless you believe Grace is a hand out? It is called a gift.
Faith is not earned same as love is not earned. Courage is not earned. Integrity is not earned. The list is long of valuable traits gained or exercised but not earned. There is more than earning when it comes to character.How does it exactly work? How do we earn faith?
Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.
Calvin has been held by everyone except Calvinists as instrumental in the death of many men and women including torture. That is not fabricating. They really did die and he really was in charge of this. If he had been opposed to it, he would have preached differently.
Now on the matter of the grave of Calvin, I got that from an article by a genevaite. Since you challenged me here, I looked it up. The grave is unmarked but not as I described it. The history of the city shows that he was hated by some and anyone can understand this since the punishment for disagreeing with him was death, but he was not thrown into an unknown grave at his death, apparently. Strange the article I just read said he requested the grave be unmarked but since it is known where it is, it is marked despite his request.
However, I apologize for my communicating misinformation and I stand corrected. Thank you for your input and doing it rather mercifully. I appreciate it Ladodgers6. You did well and I was in error.
That is a sovereign action of God. What happens during this call? Is it general or effectual?There is no indication in the Bible that God does anything but call a man
Of course. We are 100% responsible for our actions. That is why God justly condemns us. See Romans 3And God continually, from beginning to end, blames the man for the sin he does.
Of course God would not blame Himself. However, our fallen state does prevent us from obeying God's Holy Law. Again, Romans 3 comes to mind refuting your claim. So does every reference to the bondage of sin leading to death (Romans 6).He never blames himself or any "fallen state" that prevents the man from obeying God
Yes He makes us alive in spirit as we were dead before His calling. Once again confirming God is sovereign in this "process."Jesus said that we come because God draws.
I know God loves His Creation. However, if everyone was "effectually" drawn then all would be universally saved. You don't need to assume, as the apostle gives us keen insight on this in Ephesians 1:God loves all men and wants all to come to salvation, we can assume he draws all men at some point in their lives.
The Scriptures say He makes us alive.That is my belief. He does not tweek them so that they can repent.
It surely does. He makes them alive (Ephesians 2:4-7).There is no word that God does anything in a man so that he can be saved.
Obviously it is as already shown above and in which I can provide more proof texts. However, I will wait for your proof texts showing mankind is sovereign in choosing God and can do so from a position of bondage.It is not there.
This is your imagination at work.This is a doctrine of men to relieve them of the responsiblity for their own eternity. Blame God instead.
Why did God kill an animal and use its skin to cover Adam and Eve?If you read what God said to the first man considering before hand a horrible sin, you will not find that God told that man that he has a sin nature or is fallen or cannot but sin.
I'm sure you could substantiate the claim above?That is not God's viewpoint of man and sin.
If you cannot admit the spiritual deadness of our fallen nature, then you will have difficulties explaining why Jesus took our curse on His shoulders.And each man will stand before God and be judged by the deeds done in the body in one way or another. No "fallen nature" mentioned by anyone.
It's all based on a foundation. Which for some becomes a stumbling block.Faith is not earned same as love is not earned. Courage is not earned. Integrity is not earned. The list is long of valuable traits gained or exercised but not earned. There is more than earning when it comes to character.
Scary for two reasons.Notice God only considers it. He is not making them do everything they do. And this is true. Man makes choices and God makes choices based on what a man does. Scary but true.
We see that "while dead" the person is fully capable of doing lots of 'trespasses and sins" and we see that God supernaturally "draws" that dead person -- which even by Calvinist standards the "drawing of God" enables all the "choice" that depravity disabled when it comes to accepting the Gospel
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