Problem with Election

[98cwitr]

Answers inline

Those who don't care about heaven or hell are atheists.
They don't believe in either one.

Those who believe they exist and still choose to disobey God and respond to God's drawing of all humanity, will surely not be with God when they die.

As to made in His image:
I can't take the time to answer this since it won't matter to you anyway.

You should study up on it however.
In Genesis God said Let Us Make Man in Our Image.
What is YOUR image of God?

God has many images to me, but ultimately, Christ.

Does man have love?

Only if he has God

Is man a social being?

Yes

Is man moral?

Only if his nature allows him to be. Naturally, we are sinners.

Can man create?

Create what?

Of course satan ruined all of the above in one way or another.

Why did God create Satan; knowing all he would do, in your opinion/mind?

But we ARE made in the image of God because we have His "attributes" but with a fallen nature.

 

[98cwitr]

And predict the human heart...

God Bless!

The Bible uses another verb:

Psalm 33:15
he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.

 

[sdowney717]

Tell that to the people who have done that very thing! All through the years I've heard testimonies of people who didn't know who God was and called out, "God if you're real please show me!" And according to their testimony he did and they became Christians. I read even on one of these boards not just a few weeks ago of one who had said they were an atheist but they called out the very thing...and things began to happen and are Christians today. So you would stand before them and tell them you doubt their salvation?


All gentiles sacrifice to demons? I don't recall ever doing that before I was saved.

God opens the heart to Him by making a person born again, and that can happen some time before they hear the gospel and believe in Christ! Just like Cornelius.

1 Corinthians 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.


The names change but the false things gentiles worship are demonic and not of the Father. The love of the world is not of the Father.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

We are of most assuredly God if He has made us born of God and sealed us in the Holy Spirit. But everyone else is not of the Father and is under satanic influence. They are not of the Father until born again according to the Spirit, but they may also be elect yet not yet saved, but they will be as Paul says he works only for the elect that they may obtain the salvation, because only God's foreknown elect will believe because that is God's will, that of all the Father gives to Christ, Christ loses none.
.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

God's will is the ELECT are saved, and only the elect will be.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[sdowney717]

This is THE GOSPEL, notice verse 9! His own purpose and grace which was given to US in Christ before time began. God foreknew us from before the foundation of ANYTHING including time, that we would be the body of Christ, His church..and overcome this world by faith and faith in His blood.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[redleghunter]

I believe that God is sovereign and I believe that Bible supports this because before the work of God's grace, man is dead in his sin and trespasses and thus has no ability to choose God, in and of himself.

Understood. The bondage of the will from Romans 6 comes to mind.

 

[JLB777]

That's a contradiction.

Predestined for salvation and salvation through faith is a contradiction.



JLB

 

[98cwitr]

Predestined for salvation and salvation through faith is a contradiction.



JLB

How so? Faith is given by God, isn't it?

 

[JLB777]

How so? Faith is given by God, isn't it?

Yes faith is given by God as a gift, however faith isn’t activated or “made alive” until the person obeys what God says, by which faith came to them.

Do you understand the principal of faith?


Do you understand a person must obey the Gospel to be saved; regenerated?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

We cho

Check this out. In Romans 8 God does predestined us to Salvation.

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The principle of predestination is God foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose them.

If God did not foresee who would believe the Gospel, then how did He write their names in the book of Life before the foundation of the world?


JLB

 

[98cwitr]

Yes faith is given by God as a gift, however faith isn’t activated or “made alive” until the person obeys what God says, by which faith came to them.

Either you're confusing faith with belief or something else entirely. Can you provide Scripture to back up this claim?

Do you understand the principal of faith?

I believe so. Hebrews 11 is a perfect explanation of real faith.

Do you understand a person must obey the Gospel to be saved; regenerated?

Yes, but you're insinuating that a person's obedience is self-manifested it seems. I believe that a person must be reborn in order to possess an obedient heart:

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[BobRyan]

God opens the heart to Him by making a person born again,

That is an assumption that Calvinism makes to prove its conclusions. But a Calvinist conclusion based on the "given" being a Calvinist assumption - is not a rigorous proof of it. It is almost a circular one.

 

[98cwitr]

That is an assumption that Calvinism makes to prove its conclusions. But a Calvinist conclusion based on the "given" being a Calvinist assumption - is not a rigorous proof of it.

I believe the things you're calling "assumptions" are promises from God, sir:

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[98cwitr]

The principle of predestination is God foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose them.

This is flawed logic. Let me ask: Did God foresee those who would "choose" not to believe? Did He decide to create them anyway? If so, why?

 

[BobRyan]

God opens the heart to Him by making a person born again,

That is an assumption that Calvinism makes to prove its conclusions. But a Calvinist conclusion based on the "given" being a Calvinist assumption - is not a rigorous proof of it. It is almost a circular one.

I believe the things you're calling "assumptions" are promises from God, sir:

I don't think there is any promise from God saying "I cannot enable you to choose whom you will serve until I first make you born-again".

In fact Romans 10:9 appears to flatly refute that idea.


We see promises of the new birth here --

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

and here

Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

But we do not see that man "cannot choose without first having the new heart" so then - without first being born-again

There is no question but that God has "willed" to provide the Gospel and to cause the New Birth. But God's "will" is that the free-will model be sustained for the entire process such that "God wills" that no one should perish and yet - it is still the case that the "Many" of Matthew 7 do perish.


God is "not WILLING" that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

And the result?

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Because God enables free will for all mankind by His supernatural drawing power "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32

So then Romans 10:9-10

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Clearly the new birth miracle comes after the choice of Romans 10:9

What is more

Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Isaiah 5:4
"What MORE could I have done that I have not done!"

"I STAND at the door and knock - if any hears My voice AND opens the door I will come in" Rev 3

free will.

 

[JLB777]

Either you're confusing faith with belief or something else entirely. Can you provide Scripture to back up this claim?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

• Abraham our father justified by works

Not the works of the law
Not works that earn
Not good works.

The "works" that James refers to is obedience.

Abraham obeyed God when He said to sacrifice his son on the altar.


The work of obedience is how faith is activated from being dormant or dead, to produce the intended divine result.

Works - the effort obedience requires.


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

That's why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.

The woman had to move through the crowd, and actually put forth the effort to touch the hem of His garment, which was the action that faith required.


If she would have remained where she was, and only believed, "Jesus can heal me", without obeying the word of faith, which said “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well", then she would have remained ill.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

This is flawed logic. Let me ask: Did God foresee those who would "choose" not to believe? Did He decide to create them anyway? If so, why?

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

• just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

He chose those in Christ.


How does a person come to be "in Christ"?


In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:11-13





JLB

 

[98cwitr]

@ 2 Peter 3: Context is believers only: "any [of you]" Greek is "some of all types" or "all of some types"; not inclusive to all of creation. See 2 Peter 1:1

@john 1:11: Context is the Jews. See Romans 9:25

@john 12:32: actually argues AGAINST the notion of free will, as free will implies that you could choose not to be drawn

@Romans 10: And why would one who is "in the realm of the flesh" ever do such a thing? (Romans 8:8). Key there is "believe in your heart," in order to do so, one must have a heart of flesh and not stone. Therefore the promise outlined must be fulfilled in order for faith to manifest.

@Matthew 23: Notice it says "your children"...why doesn't it just say "you?" Because it was not God's Will for them to be saved in the first place. Was God's desire not fulfilled? Of course it was, as we not clearly see, that through Christ, all of Israel (aka: the elect) have been and are being saved! Good News indeed.

@ISAIAH 5: Not even sure of your point here. The vineyard is constantly being pruned (John 15)

@Rev 3: Must have ears to hear (see: Mark 4:12)

 

[98cwitr]

How does a person come to be "in Christ"?

Ultimately, by God giving them to Him: John 6

 

[JLB777]

Ultimately, by God giving them to Him: John 6

I see, so your promoting Universal Reconciliation?


So a person doesn't have to believe the Gospel.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:11-13



JLB

 

[BobRyan]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

• Abraham our father justified by works

Matt 7 - good works come only from good trees.

First you must make the tree good - then you get good fruit.

The Bible never calls the "choice" to turn to God "salvation by works" but it is the first step to being turned into a good tree as Romans 10:9 points out.

There are two different kinds of justification.

1. James 2 and Romans 2 point to justification of an already good tree seen in its good fruit. This is the subject of Christ's Matthew 7 message
2. Romans 3 and Romans 5 point to the justification that happens by faith when a sinner turns to accept the Gospel by faith.