Dorothy Mae
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We are set free from a number of burdens if we keep Jesus’ teaching and receive from him truth,
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We are set free from a number of burdens if we keep Jesus’ teaching and receive from him truth,As a practical matter, we must assume freedom and act accordingly. But Paul declares the underlying reality and our personal responsibility in Rom. 9:14-21.
I am Christian, but why do you have only 2 option?
And Jesus was talking to believing Jews in Jn.8:32. What are we set free from?
Shall I explain?Huh?
No he wasn’t. I was saying what Calvinists day at times. It is not what anyone described in the Bible thought. That is my point.You mean the apostle Paul was Calvinist! This is shocking news!
Everything that happens in the history of creation happens exactly as God always knew it would happen if and when He acted in certain ways. He acted and continues to act in certain ways and not act in other ways according to His own choices. By the actions of God and by the things He "allows" to take place instead of other things - God has predestined all that takes place.If a choice is predestined and cannot deviate, there no free will. Saying otherwise requires shutting down the mind.
How silly.All geological matters make no choices ever whatsoever. If you think our choices are like rocks, then you have embraced the idea that we have no free will. Rocks have no free will
No - God is not evil.Just want to point you that your Calvinism says God predestined to live like that. That is evil. Predestining that makes the one who does that evil.
God knew from the foundation of the world exactly who would Go to Hell because of their choices and who would go to Heaven because of their choices. He has "forced" no one to make those choices.All Calvinists attribute evil to God every time they say God predestined some for hell with no hope.
No - it is the opposite of intellectual suicide. It is well reasoned and it is according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit Who has been given to believers. It is not only inescapable logic given the nature of God and the nature of man as those natures have been explained to us - it is exactly as God has told us it is.This is intellectual suicide. You say God predestined the drug addict to live 30 years like that and then say it’s because of the mans choices.
God says it's possible and I believe Him.Which is true for the calvinist because rationally you cannot have God fix a man’s choices without possible deviation and the man also be able to make free choices.
If something is IRRESISTIBLE, HOW am I able to decide against it??? It means I CANNOT decide against it.
If a choice is predestined and cannot deviate, there no free will.
All Calvinists attribute evil to God every time they say God predestined some for hell with no hope.
This is the problem with Calvinism.Not one?
Clement of Rome 88 AD
“Let us therefore consider, brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 188.).
“This blessedness comes upon those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord,” (Epist. ad Corinth. 1 114).
Justin Martyr . A.D. 150.
We bear, that we may not, “with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360).
“The Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest, with the elect,” (Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.)
“The great things, which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,” that are or shall be well-pleasing to him, and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men, he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught, Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23; and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy that shall not be saved, he will say to them, “Go ye into outer darkness, which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels,” (Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 301.)
“God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel,” (Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.).
Irenaeus. A.D. 180.
“God is not so poor and indigent as not to give to every body its own soul as its proper form. Hence, having completed the number which he before determined with himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto life, shall rise again, having their own bodies, souls, and spirits, in which they pleased God; but those who are deserving of punishment shall go into it, having also their own souls and bodies in which they departed from the grace of God,” (L. 2, c. 62, inter Fragment. Graec. ad. calcem).
Clement of Alexandria. A.D. 190.
“That virtue which holds the church together is faith, by which the elect of God are saved,” (Stromat. 50:2, p. 384.)
“According to the fitness which every one has, He, that is, God, distributes his benefits both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians; and to them who are predestinated from among them, and are in his own time called, faithful, and elect,” (Ibid. 50:7, p. 702, 703.).
“Jeremiah 1:5, 7, Do not say, I am a child; before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, etc., his note upon it is, this prophecy intimates unto us, that those who before the foundation of the world are known by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by him to faith, are now babes, because of the will of God lately fulfilled, as we are new-born unto vocation and salvation,” (Paedadog. 50:1, c. 7, p. 111.)
“It is not becoming, that a friend of God, on whom God has predestinated before the foundation of the world, to be put into the high adoption of children, should fall into pleasures or fears, and be unemployed in repressing the passions,” (Stromat. 50:6, p. 652.)
Origen A.D 230
“Ye have already learned above (in Lecture XLV.) who the sheep are: be ye sheep. They are sheep through believing, sheep in following the Shepherd, sheep in not despising their Redeemer, sheep in entering by the door, sheep in going out and finding pasture, sheep in the enjoyment of eternal life. What did He mean, then, in saying to them, “Ye are not of my sheep”? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood,” (Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 4).
And they shall never perish:” you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. “No one shall pluck them out of my hand.” Give still greater heed to this: “That which my Father gave me is greater than all.”What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, “The Lord knoweth them that are His;” and “Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;”–there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays.(Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John. Tractates XLV to XLIX, Chapter 10.22-42, par. 6)
Cyprian A.D. 250
“It seems that the knowledge of God is greater than to be comprehended by human nature, hence are so many mistakes in men concerning God, but by the goodness and love of God to man, and through wondrous and divine grace, the knowledge of God comes to them who were before comprehended in the foreknowledge of God; or, according to the version of Gelenius, who to this were predestinated,” (Contra cells. 1. 7, p. 361, 362.).
“All these things look this way, that the apostle may prove this; That if either Isaac or Jacob, for their merits, had been chosen to those things which they, being in the flesh sought after, and, by the works of the flesh, had deserved to be justified; then the grace of their merit might belong to the posterity of flesh and blood also, but now, since, their election does not arise from works, but from the purpose of God, from the will of him that calleth,” (In Rom.l. 7, fol. 195, G.).
Just a sampling.
R,Yes there is, depending on your definition of "free will."
If you keep using that phrase "free will," maybe you should find out what meanings it has.
No, they don't.
Yes, exactly.
Here is a question for the group regarding total depravity. If we are incapable of anything but sin before we come to God, why are there nonbelievers who lead moral lives and do lots of good things, who love their families and fellow men, who treat people better than a lot of “Christians” do? Is that a totally depraved soul?
And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."Even Paul grieved for his fellow brethren, the Jews and was willing to give his life if they could become saved.
Romans 9:3
Which brings up an interesting point...
Paul was more heart grieved for his fellow brethren than God is for humanity according to calvinists!
IOW, Paul loves humans more than God does (according to them).
Thanks for your thoughts.
Pretty funny!And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."
Well a question to Calvinists here...What would you say to Paul??
Again the personal insult when you are losing. Calvinists can do this without fear since they assume they are predestined for Heaven no matter how they treat others. That’s why the theology is popular.Yes there is, depending on your definition of "free will."
If you keep using that phrase "free will," maybe you should find out what meanings it has.
Yes they do. (What a ridiculous response. Is this your habit when you have no intelligent answer next to personal insults?)No, they don't.
The sorrow of Paul and Jesus over the lost makes no sense at all for one. And for two, it’s making them more compassionate than God who supposedly predestined them for Hell without the slightest regret or compassion. This is how we know the Calvinist position is false.And just to add on to that. If Paul was here today and expressed such a sentiment...what would Calvinists say to him? Wouldn't it be, "Hey Paul that's really being disrespectful to God! You're challenging the wisdom of God's sovereign will! If God meant for them to be saved they'd be saved so Paul please...knock it off! You're going to leave the impression that God longs for ALL to be saved not just us lucky ones or especially blessed! If God meant for you to go to heaven and not they and you're sad about it you should know that you're going against the pleasure of God! No worries though! We'll send you back in time the writings of Calvin and I'm sure you'll find they'll make things perfectly clear."
Well a question to Calvinists here...What would you say to Paul??
I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.Again the personal insult when you are losing. Calvinists can do this without fear since they assume they are predestined for Heaven no matter how they treat others. That’s why the theology is popular.
Yes they do. (What a ridiculous response. Is this your habit when you have no intelligent answer next to personal insults?)
Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did.
You're absolutely correct.Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.
I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.
Where in my post do I mention works? You must be a Calvinist. They allow themselves to insult others calling others all manner of false nasty names since burning at the stake was outlawed and “bend” the truth as they please. You guys think you’re predestined for Heaven no matter what so you let your anger have its way. Loving your neighbor or God is an optional extra for you guys or maybe a “should” on better days.
Why is it a failing if someone does not agree with you?I see yours is a works based salvation, doing good and being good and not making waves or rocking the boat. Like things the false prophets did. And your so boldly arrogant in your attacks on grace. You wont ever recognize this failing in your life unless God opens your mind and heart to understand His ways.
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