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Why is my statement any more silly than the other poster who said if God is not allowed to choose who is lost at no fault to their own he'd no longer be sovereign? Your answer would ring true to this issue as well....God's essential nature of LOVE (and truth) would forbid him from crossing the line into being unjust and unfair. No difference!That is a totally silly question. Sort of like the paradox of omnipotence: "Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?"
God is God and our belief or disbelief cannot change Him. God is all powerful so that He can lie, but His essential nature is Truth, even as Jesus is "The way, the truth, and the life."
No RLHThe above theologians spoke volumes on the actual Word of God. Some of the best minds of Christendom. All of the above would tell us and have told us to examine the Scriptures for ourselves like good Bereans. Which is Sola Scriptura.
What you are employing is what Catholics accuse Protestants of and what I call "Solo Meo."
There's close to two thousand years of Christian souls who have studied and provided commentary on Holy Scriptures. We do well to examine their works to learn of their triumphs and more importantly their failures as well.
I've seen few quotes from Calvin on these threads. I've seen a few confessions of Faith as well. What's interesting is they all point us to Holy Writ with the advice to search these things for yourself.
We have theologians or teachers in our churches for a reason. The apostles said being a teacher is a gift. Not every one can be one, nor an elder or deacon.
I've seen you say Calvin made up election and predestination. Yet several have shown you this is actual apostolic teachings in the NT and even Jesus taught it. The actual words are used by Paul. Calvin did not make it up. What he and every other theologian have done is use a system to explain the Scriptures. It's called systematic theology.
Acts 15:18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Psalm 139 v16 is an amazing confession! In the determined council of God, our individual fates extend all the way back to before the foundation of the earth.
And honestly for the believer what wonderful consolation what loving care of the Father, but for them who believe not what terror!
13
For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
I believe I've already replied to this.Did God choose Abraham?
I went to a Wesleyan church too.Actually, millions of people do.
Faith comes by hearing GOD's words. Take that as you will.
I do not have a problem with God's Election. I have been debating with another poster. She does have a problem with Election. So we are starting this new thread to get everyone's take on it.
"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101
Can God lie?
Would he lose his sovereignty if you said no?
No one can have faith on their own without God enabling it.
I am asking you for your understanding. Are you refusing to clarify that?
I know that faith originates from God, is sourced from God. It does not originates in the individual human. The Bible teaches that man is dead in his or her sin until God does His work of grace and first regenerates the individual.
An interesting discussion to have but why'd you place it here? What does it have to do with anything about the theme of the thread?On Cheap Grace (this is a bit long for this thread, but well worth considering).
Some people (a lot of people these days) are into a dangerous theology---what has been called “cheap grace.” They want to acknowledge that God is a loving, merciful God but do not want to accept that He is also a just and holy God who will not abide sin and imperfection forever.
I have written about this elsewhere but let me explain a bit on this thread using some famous quotes.
The love and grace of God in Christ for forgiveness and all the other spiritual blessings must continue to be a primary source of praise to God. However, both grace and love have been misinterpreted. "Instead of being an incentive for living a life of holiness, God's love has become an excuse for indulging every base human desire." (Miguel Grave de Peralta)
How many times must I answer to Romans 9???No the OP does not believe that. He stated God chooses according to His purpose.
Who are we to stand in judgment of the Almighty?!
Romans 9: NASB
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Be intellectually honest.God is Good. He also will punish transgressors. He says so.
Based on your model the Lake of Fire will be empty and all will have eternal life.
Would you say that Romans 9 to 11 is corporate election?I wish I had more time to devote to this thread, because it is an important topic. For me, the most Biblical view of election is conditional and primarily corporate. To get a handle on what that means and what it does not mean (as there are different versions of corporate election), I highly recommend the following post and the associated links: Corporate Election Quotes
And you can't consider that Jesus stands at the door of everyone's heart and knocks, wanting to come into their lives?
I am asking you for your understanding. Are you refusing to clarify that?
I know that faith originates from God, is sourced from God. It does not originates in the individual human. The Bible teaches that man is dead in his or her sin until God does His work of grace and first regenerates the individual.
An interesting discussion to have but why'd you place it here? What does it have to do with anything about the theme of the thread?
God does not simply "enable" faith. It is effective and complete. If God were to "enable" someone's faith, do they still have a chance to remain condemned? If yes, then God fails at what He does. This is not the God of the Bible.
In order to have problems with Election as somehow diminishing the love of God, one must have one or all of the following misperceptions.
Does your assertion of these things make it so? I think not.They must:
1. Deny (or not understand) the terrible nature of sin.
2. Deny (or not understand) the truth about God’s justice and holiness-- that NO ONE deserves to be saved, that we ALL deserve condemnation and elimination.
It is not a mystery. God has enabled everyone. They choose to hear and come to faith or not. Very simple.Not all are among the Elect. The reasons why some refuse to believe even though they hear and understand the gospel word... is a mystery. Why God successfully enables some to hear and come to faith but not others is part of that same mystery. God remains sovereign and omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent-- and loving, gracious, and just. We do not need to understand on this side of heaven (Proverbs 3:5-6) why some will not be saved, but we do need to trust God and believe it. None of us can be more loving and just than God.
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