Problem w/The Pope...

[DEVIL STOMPER777]

First off,let me say Im loyal to The Holy Father & Im a good Cathoic in standing & all that(believe me Ive been a RC for 7years but IM OLD SCHOOL BABY)! Yet Ive got a problem w/The Popes ecumenical endevours(esp today at Assis):Why would The Successor to Peter hold prayer meetings w/Moslems,Shintoists,Buddhists & other pagan leaders? There is no evangelization going on from his side,no talk of Christ or the Faith...just a PC common denominator god. I know I cant be the only Catholic out here who feels this isnt right! And before u Jack Chick drones begin your diatribes...talk to the hand.Dont you think this whole "lets put aside our differences for a feel-good day" is just not kosher? I certainly would be so charged to hear the Pope put the Truth out there about all these false religions & the path to Hell that they are taking their people on! Give me your thoughts people!!!!!!!

 

[BrotherFinn]

Let me say this gently but firmly as a Catholic priest...you truly need to discard your narrow view of Catholic Christianity if you wish to enjoy the full fruits of the Gospel. As an entire, collegial church speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt at Vatican II, the presence of actual Truth(i.e. Jesus Christ the Word made Flesh) can be known to at least some degree in any "religion" that fosters or communicates Love. That holds for Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. In this manner, we could say that Christ makes Himself mystically but truly present in certain aspects of these ideologies. However, it is very true that some religious visions of the Eternal God can be clearer and more actualized than others. This is where the Pope, as successor of Kephas-Peter (the Rock) would claim that the Catholic Church (or, for that matter, any Christian community that specifically communicates the *Person* of Jesus Christ) offers an opportunity for the fullness of salvation--not in any church institution, but in the Person of Jesus HImself. By the same token, the Pope, while recognizing that the Person of Jesus can be known, shown and loved in most all Christian fellowships, would say that the Catholic Christian fellowship holds the fullest vision of Christian faith of all of them, due to its indisuptable link to the historical apostles, its centuries of unbroken continuity, preservation of baptism and Eucharist, etc, and especially by virtue of the fact that the Roman bishop truly is the historical successor of Peter's servant/leadership of the Apostles, he whose task it was to "strengthen the brethren." In any case, try to broaden your horizons of faith. You won't fall into darkness or doubt if you truly keep your eyes on Jesus Christ the Person, and will learn a great deal more about the reality of Love's secret workings and hidden places in our diverse existence.

Peacefully in Christ & Mary,

Br. Finn

 

[Tesseract]

Brother Finn!

Are you really a priest? If then, it really great that priests are checking out the Internet.

 

[KC Catholic]

Yep, we have been blessed with an official source!

Here is his introductory post!

pub16.ezboard.com/fleftbe...=352.topic

It is a blessing to have priests post here, we can learn a lot and sharpen our knowledge.

 

[DEVIL STOMPER777]

Yes its nice to have a

 

[DEVIL STOMPER777]

Yes its nice to have a "blackrobe" amongst us & I look frwd to future posts. As far as Vatican II(were not going to go there are we...LOL). I still dont see how hanging w/pagans & worshipping with them fullfills the great commission. All those mentioned deny the divinity of Christ,the Holy Trinity etc. THEY ARE PAGAN RELIGIONS. And please do not equate Islam as having the same God as Christians & Jews...allah is not the God of Our Faith!!! Islam is a false religion started by a fallen angel masquerading as Gabriel(this is a whole other topic). As far as Buddha,Vishnu etc all false gods...can darkness dwell in the light? Im still confused by POPE JP'S actions here,sorry. Narrow-minded about The Faith....YUP,guilty as charged! Call me an old-fashioned 32yr old Harp,but Gods Truth never changes...just mans interpertation.
GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!

 

[BrotherFinn]

Devil Stomper (love the name)...your gift is your enthusiasm and excitement about the Truth you truly feel regarding your Catholic beliefs--but know that the line between enthusiasm and fanaticism can sometimes be very thin. Cross that line and your gift becomes a burden. That said, keep in mind that it's perfectly okay to recognize that certain elements of non-Christian (or non Catholic Christian) faiths are often rooted in what we perceive to be "less enlightened" traditions, or in practices that do not stem from the work of Love, and hence, from Christ, Who is the Source of all Love. For me, a good example of this comes from the story of Mother Teresa, who founded her Home for the Dying on the outskirts of an ancient temple to the Hindu goddess, Kali. Now, Kali is a deity whose mythology springs from pain, suffering, vengeance, and a desire to destroy mankind. For many Hindus, Kali is the embodiment, in goddess-form, of pure misery. In order to "get on the good side" of that force of misery, they have attempted for centuries to placate this deity through blood sacrifice, etc. Humans have done this with various deities for centuries--they've tried to appease the violent, god-like forces they don't understand in ways that they believe might be pleasing to a deity. Obviously, this is a very primitive human response. We can see how uneducated people (or people caught up in "tradition for the sake of traditon") can put simple concepts like that together and believe such things are useful. But Jesus taught us to think and react to the Divine on a much more accurate, and indeed perfect level. Mother Teresa built her home for the dying in the shadows of the temple of a Death Goddess, and illustrated so wonderfully how "Death" can be approached from two different spiritual angles: one from the quaking fear of and need to satisfy a hateful entity, the other from a desire to comfort, nurture, and communicate pure kindness to the dying in the Name of a loving Lord. It's clear which is the "better" approach, and which is the more "True." Instead of looking at pagans and non-Christian people as being anti-God, try to look at them as perhaps having an incomplete "glimpse." After all, everyone responds in one way or the other to Love, and Love always comes from the True God, no matter where it is found on this Earth. You can claim your unique Catholic Christianity and believe firmly in its superiority without resorting to blanket condemnations of all other faiths. Besides, even Catholic Christianity struggles to see the full light of the Gospel at times. As Paul said... "we see through the glass darkly" now. Many traditons of Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists spring from healthy human attitudes toward the Divine, and we must have respect for them without necessarily having agreement. Most of all, the best witness we can ever give for Christ is NOT a doctrinal one, or an ecclesiastical one. We witness by LOVE and faith in action, and if we witness well enough, non-believers will ask what makes us so happy, and then we can tell them the reason for our gladness: JESUS THE CHRIST. The rest will follow. It really is as simple as that (or should be). Be peaceful.

Br. Finn

 

[KC Catholic]

That's the way I look at what the Pope is doing - it's ministry in action.

So many times we encounter people who think they have to smack us upside the head with a 2X4 to get our attention about salvation or how our religion is wrong and theirs is correct. We all know from experience that this is a huge turnoff, not to mention insulting and demeaning.

We witness to our faith in the midst of those who don't share the same views by presenting that witness in a loving manner.

I have a friend who is muslim and we've discussed our religions because I knew little about his faith. Yet I was surprised to find out that they believe Jesus was a prophet of God and that Mary is a very special and holy person. So, I'm not sure how we can say that 'Allah' is not the same God.

His devotion during Ramadan with fasting and prayer, not to mention his daily praying inspired me to spend more time at the Eucharistic Adoration, to pray and fast more during lent and to read the bible more. So, eventhough we do not share the same savior we can learn from each other.

Devil777 - I understand your feelings and fervor, but we have to keep it in check and not allow it to become fanaticism.

Peace!

 

[DEVIL STOMPER777]

N ice to hear from ya KC! Padre I appreciate your responce(although I cant agree 100%,Im trying).LOL>
In regards to the Holy Ghost,amongst my prayers & intentions yesterday I asked to be "enlightned" to the motives of Pope JP & guess what...yup=spoke to me through the word:COL 3:9-17. WOW TALK ABOUT OPENING MY EYES! KC,as far as allah,the Koran being inspired by God....thats just not possible Kiddo! St Paul warned us of angels deceiving w/false gospels & false messiahs etc & that is ISLAM. Yeah they believe Christ was a prophet,so do Jehovah witness. Remember God(in their case allah) never delivered the "inspired"word of the Koran to his prophet...it was done by an angel. All prophets of Old Test who were given "inspired word of God" were spoken to thru The Father. Islams prophet was deceived by the Father.........of LIES. Islam negates & attempts to refute all the basic Truths of Christianity....its purpose was & is to eliminate Christianity & The Jews. You cannot equate Islam w/The Faith. Dont be blinded by all the PC/newage rhetoric being forced down our throats. Pick up some Apologetics on both sides & see where its coming from.
GOD BLESS

 

[Blackhawk]

BrotherFinn,

Can a protestant who is not anti-Catholic respond here? I do not know if I can agree with you here but maybe I can. Are sayign that Muslims, hindus, etc. have some truth in them? or are you saying that they know the Truth but just not very well at all? I guess what I am saying is that do you believe that all roads can take you to Heaven? is that what the Pope was saying or that we should respect and love people of other faiths and that they do have some truths i them? i.e. do not musrder and love others.

I personally believe that all religions have truths in them like I mentioned before but people in the other religions still have not found the Truth so they are still destined for hell. Now I do not have all the facts about what the Pope did but I would be very interested to know. I have just heard from people that he has gotten the Catholic church off the right track. That he is saying that people from all faiths will go to Heaven. This is 2nd hand knowledge though. So I do not know how reliable it is.

Know that i am not antiCatholic in anyway but I am very anti-herretical teaching. So that is why I want ot get to the bottom of it.

Blackhaw

 

[Blackhawk]

KC,

Can you answer my question that I put to Brother Finn. It has been awhile so I was wondering if you could since you have helped me earlier today.

Blackhaw


I just checked out the other thread where Bro. Finn had some interesting comments. I did not see it before or I would of sent this to you earlier and not waited for him for so long.

 

[KC Catholic]

Yeah, Let me get back with you on this..possibly tonight.

Peace.

 

[Blackhawk]

KC,

no problem. I will do my post on tradition tomorrow.

blackhaw

 

[KC Catholic]

Are you saying that Muslims, hindus, etc. have some truth in them? or are you saying that they know the Truth but just not very well at all?

Our guidance from the church comes from the Catechism and a papal document called DOMINUS IESUS. www.catholicfirst.com/The...sJesus.htm

The Pope states that the church understands there may be a 'ray of truth' in these other religions, but that Jesus Christ is still the only way.

In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: “The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions.

She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men”.4 Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue.

Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which “it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit”.5 Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's evangelizing mission,6 requires an attitude of understanding and a relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience to the truth and with respect for freedom.7

is that what the Pope was saying or that we should respect and love people of other faiths and that they do have some truths i them? i.e. do not murder and love others.

I definitely think we owe them respect and show them them the love and mercy of Christ. Our witness is our best example to them. And as long as we do not deminish Christ's role in Salvation we can meet and pray with these other religions.

Now I do not have all the facts about what the Pope did but I would be very interested to know.

Here is the story of what took place. It was mostly a meeting of prayer for the end of violence in the world, especially in the name of religion.

www.catholicexchange.com/..._id=139391

I have just heard from people that he has gotten the Catholic church off the right track. That he is saying that people from all faiths will go to Heaven.

I'm not sure of that quote, but he really has encouraged the youth of the faith to really have a strong walk with Christ.

Know that i am not anti-Catholic in anyway but I am very anti-herretical teaching. So that is why I want ot get to the bottom of it.

I can see that and I appreciate your curiousity and interest.

Hth, Peace!

 

[Blackhawk]

KC,

I skimmed the document. This statement.

" Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God. One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments."


And your statement here.

"The Pope states that the church understands there may be a 'ray of truth' in these other religions, but that Jesus Christ is still the only way."

is what I wanted to here.

All this talk about "A ray of truth" is very much like some of the early church fathers. Many of them felt that some of the greek philosophers and philosophies had some truth in them. Some went even farther and said that they were almost like the OT for the greeks. I would not go as far as the latter but definitely greek philospphy has much truth in it. They just did not know the Truth. That is what they needed and who men like Paul, Tertullian, Augustine, etc. tried to evangelize.

" I definitely think we owe them respect and show them them the love and mercy of Christ. Our witness is our best example to them. And as long as we do not deminish Christ's role in Salvation we can meet and pray with these other religions."

My thoughts exactly. Billy Graham does it. So I think i can too.


"I'm not sure of that quote, but he really has encouraged the youth of the faith to really have a strong walk with Christ. "

I guess until I actually see something that he wrote or said that goes against Orthodox Christian faith then I will treat him with the respect he deserves as a church leader.

"I can see that and I appreciate your curiousity and interest. "

And I appreciate your willingness to answer honest questions intelligently and quickly.

Peace out!

Blackhaw

 

[KC Catholic]

Oops, I was calling you "Blackhawk", sorry about that.

You are certainly welcome, I enjoy checking these things out because I am naturally skeptical about everything. It took me almost 7 years to become Catholic and I am still learning today.

Stick around here and ask away. This is not a 'Catholics-only' site, we have many Protestants that visit with us here.

Peace.
KC

 

[nyj]

There is an essay by C.S. Lewis that speaks on this subject, but actually focuses more on the atheistic argument that Christianity just "ripped off" things from pagan religions to form their own and is therefore just as illegitimate as the others (and thereby come to the conclusion that it is ok to reject a belief in God).

C.S. Lewis argues that God could have, and most likely did, reveal Himself in many many ways to many many cultures. These obviously were all foreshadowings of Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, death and resurrection. At first glance, things look similar but a true study of these myths and the Gospel accounts are not alike in many ways at all, making the story of Jesus Christ truly unique.

So, when the Church states that there is a "ray of truth" in certain religion, this may indeed by the case, insomuch that these religions preach on the dignity of life and love for one another.

If I can find that essay for you, I'll let you know.

 

[Blackhawk]

No problem about the blackhawk thing. A lot of people do it. My screen name sounds indian so I guess they just extend it. Maybe I should just change it to it and that would make it easier. I think I will stick around. I am very intrigued with other denominations and how they do things. Especially the catholic church. I am going to seminary this fall and they have a class about the history of the Catholic church. My wife said that when she saw that she knew I would want to take it. My passion is Chritian thought. (church history, historical and systematic theology, chritian ethics and philosophy) I have just started to learn about it but it fascinates me.

Blackhaw

 

[hopeee]

I am a Catholic, and I think the Pope is wonderful! He is doing a lot of good interacting with other Religions. It's a great idea. Divisions only cause Hate! I respect people who respect other people's beliefs, and traditions. Don't forget the Golden Rule: Love one another, because we all are brothers and sisters! We were all made from the image of God! Treat others as you wish to be treated.

 

[ZooMom]

Whoa. I was wondering how this got resurrected.

Hi, hope.