Prewrath?

[Choose Wisely]

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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Exactly. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. At least we can agree on this and the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[BABerean2]

Exactly. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. At least we can agree on this and the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

And James was speaking to members of the Church in his letter, which was addressed to "the twelve tribes", in James 1:1-3.

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[Choose Wisely]

And James was speaking to members of the Church in his letter, which was addressed to "the twelve tribes", in James 1:1-3.

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Again we agree. That's three times. Ok, I'm ready. Let's go with the two peoples of God cut and paste. No, no, no.....what was I thinking. How about......until one comes to understand the NEW COVENANT. I don't know.......you choose.

 

[BABerean2]

Again we agree. That's three times. Ok, I'm ready. Let's go with the two peoples of God cut and paste. No, no, no.....what was I thinking. How about......until one comes to understand the NEW COVENANT. I don't know.......you choose.

So you understand the truth, but you choose to ignore it?

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[Choose Wisely]

So you understand the truth, but you choose to ignore it?

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There is a huge difference between what you perceive as truth, and truth. That being said, could you please just stick to the long, out of context, cut and paste stuff? Maybe a video would be in order. How about the pretribulation rapture paradox?

 

[BABerean2]

There is a huge difference between what you perceive as truth, and truth. That being said, could you please just stick to the long, out of context, cut and paste stuff? Maybe a video would be in order. How about the pretribulation rapture paradox?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

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[iamlamad]

There is a huge difference between what you perceive as truth, and truth. That being said, could you please just stick to the long, out of context, cut and paste stuff? Maybe a video would be in order. How about the pretribulation rapture paradox?

Sometimes you can be very humorous! Good post!

 

[iamlamad]

Who created this view and who are the believers promoting it now? Do they tend to be former PreTriber's? Baptists?

As far as I know, it was Rosenthal and Van Kampen - both pretribbers before they lost their way and came up with prewrath. I have a copy of their first books.

Their point of divergence was two verses not correctly understood: Joel's verse that the sun would turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord - and Matthew's statement that the sun and moon would turn dark AFTER the days of GT.

In truth, these are two different signs that will appear over 7 years apart - but they imagined that they are the very same sign. So they then imagined that the days of great tribulation had to come before the 6th seal in Revelation. In fact, their theory forces them to rearrange most of the book of Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes they are Douggg. You see the first fruits and then you see the harvest. The first fruits go to heaven, same as those raptured at the harvest latter in the chapter



17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is not the wheat and tares harvest, it is the fall fruit harvest.

Does it really make any difference? It is without much doubt the battle of Armageddon. It will be the death of millions of soldiers who ended up on the wrong side of this war!

 

[Berean Tim]

As far as I know, it was Rosenthal and Van Kampen - both pretribbers before they lost their way and came up with prewrath. I have a copy of their first books.

Their point of divergence was two verses not correctly understood: Joel's verse that the sun would turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord - and Matthew's statement that the sun and moon would turn dark AFTER the days of GT.

In truth, these are two different signs that will appear over 7 years apart - but they imagined that they are the very same sign. So they then imagined that the days of great tribulation had to come before the 6th seal in Revelation. In fact, their theory forces them to rearrange most of the book of Revelation.

Actually we understand Matt " After the tribulation of those days" as after the Seals. The same event at the 6th seal. The "Day of the Lord" starting after the rapture.
I've read Rosenthal but if your looking for resources I would suggest Charles Cooper, Alan Kurschner, Chris White, Nelson Walters. Walters and Kurschner have excellent books on the PreWrath view

 

[Choose Wisely]

Does it really make any difference? It is without much doubt the battle of Armageddon. It will be the death of millions of soldiers who ended up on the wrong side of this war!

So okay it's the battle of Armageddon. So if Revelation is in order how come we have another Armageddon in Rev 16:6.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[iamlamad]

Actually we understand Matt " After the tribulation of those days" as after the Seals. The same event at the 6th seal. The "Day of the Lord" starting after the rapture.
I've read Rosenthal but if your looking for resources I would suggest Charles Cooper, Alan Kurschner, Chris White, Nelson Walters. Walters and Kurschner have excellent books on the PreWrath view

After the first two books, I knew how they had gone astray. In other words, ERRED. And every prewrather that has followed are in the same error.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange john's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE found to be wrong.

For example the "tribulation of those days" will begin at the midpoint - 7th trumpet - and continue and get worse after the image and mark are created. The beheaded people BEGIN to show up in Rev. 15. So you tell me: How do you Move the days of GT from chapters 15 and 16 to the seals? Magic?

You are right: the Day of the Lord starts immediately after the rapture - the DAY starting at the 6th seal and the rapture a moment before. But the days of GT will not come for another 3 1/2 years! The pre-6th seal rapture will come before the 70th week even starts - because the week begins at the 7th seal.

The first seal is the CHURCH right after the ascension: sent out to make disciples of all nations. Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the church. God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth - for sure centered on Jerusalem. that would be Europe and Africa with the Middle East in between. Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice, killing around 1/3 of the people each time? Europe. Where have many famines happened in the last few hundred years? Africa. Where did the Aids virus hit and kill perhaps 25% or more? Africa.

Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.

You see, God started right where John was, at the beginning of the church age.

Prewrath is worse even that posttrib. Prewrath must rearrange most of Revelation to make it work. It will be proven wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

So okay it's the battle of Armageddon. So if Revelation is in order how come we have another Armageddon in Rev 16:6.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Do you recognize prophecy when you see it? In Rev. 12 it is prophecy - foretelling future events - one of which is the battle of Armageddon. Anyway, I have forgotten where we were!

 

[Berean Tim]

After the first two books, I knew how they had gone astray. In other words, ERRED. And every prewrather that has followed are in the same error.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange john's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE found to be wrong.

For example the "tribulation of those days" will begin at the midpoint - 7th trumpet - and continue and get worse after the image and mark are created. The beheaded people BEGIN to show up in Rev. 15. So you tell me: How do you Move the days of GT from chapters 15 and 16 to the seals? Magic?

You are right: the Day of the Lord starts immediately after the rapture - the DAY starting at the 6th seal and the rapture a moment before. But the days of GT will not come for another 3 1/2 years! The pre-6th seal rapture will come before the 70th week even starts - because the week begins at the 7th seal.

The first seal is the CHURCH right after the ascension: sent out to make disciples of all nations. Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the church. God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth - for sure centered on Jerusalem. that would be Europe and Africa with the Middle East in between. Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice, killing around 1/3 of the people each time? Europe. Where have many famines happened in the last few hundred years? Africa. Where did the Aids virus hit and kill perhaps 25% or more? Africa.

Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.

You see, God started right where John was, at the beginning of the church age.

Prewrath is worse even that posttrib. Prewrath must rearrange most of Revelation to make it work. It will be proven wrong.

Actually I see the PreWrath view as being the most chronological. We consider Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 as the same events. False Christ, the rider of the 1st horse, wars and rumor of wars the 2nd and so on. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect (his chosen) then the Wrath of God starts. Revelation 7 has the dead in Christ and raptured saints before the throne , then the 7th seal opens the Trumpets. No magic we just see different timelines

 

[iamlamad]

Actually I see the PreWrath view as being the most chronological. We consider Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 as the same events. False Christ, the rider of the 1st horse, wars and rumor of wars the 2nd and so on. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect (his chosen) then the Wrath of God starts. Revelation 7 has the dead in Christ and raptured saints before the throne , then the 7th seal opens the Trumpets. No magic we just see different timelines

Now you have hit the nail squarely on the head! "Nailed it," as we say! That is the error - big time.
The truth? There will be TWO times the sun and moon will be signs:
First the sign for the Day of the Lord - the moon turns blood red - and can be SEEN.
Second, 7 plus years later, another sign, but this sign will be TOTAL DARKNESS: neither the sun or the moon can be seen. BOTH are dark.

Trying to make these two signs, which will appear over 7 years apart, destroys the chronology of Revelation.

Note: since Revelation is the most complete revelation of the end times, AND since it is the latest, we FORM doctrine from Revelation and then fill in missing pieces from other scriptures. Probably Matthe 24 would be next.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. Revelation is in perfect order from the Holy Spirit. Prewrath theory must rearrange almost the entire book to fit. It is OBVIOUSLY in error.

There are as many theories out there as there are people - but only ONE theory is right - that is the Author's theory!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Now you have hit the nail squarely on the head! "Nailed it," as we say! That is the error - big time.
The truth? There will be TWO times the sun and moon will be signs:
First the sign for the Day of the Lord - the moon turns blood red - and can be SEEN.
Second, 7 plus years later, another sign, but this sign will be TOTAL DARKNESS: neither the sun or the moon can be seen. BOTH are dark.


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Translation...........There will be only one time when there are signs of the sun and moon and the stars fall from heaven. But since I can't figure out that Revelation is not in order I will have to pound a square peg into a round hole. See, there, it fits.

Trying to make these two signs, which will appear over 7 years apart, destroys the chronology of Revelation.

Well we see these signs in Rev 6:12-13. Please show the verses in Revelation where these signs occur 7 years later.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Actually I see the PreWrath view as being the most chronological. We consider Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 as the same events. False Christ, the rider of the 1st horse, wars and rumor of wars the 2nd and so on. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect (his chosen) then the Wrath of God starts. Revelation 7 has the dead in Christ and raptured saints before the throne , then the 7th seal opens the Trumpets. No magic we just see different timelines

Finally, someone understands that the end times Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 are the same things that John spoke of in Rev 6. So everything lines up perfectly and we can tell that there will be a pre wrath rapture.

Now, do you see the pre tribulation rapture?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange john's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE found to be wrong.

For example the "tribulation of those days" will begin at the midpoint - 7th trumpet - and continue and get worse after the image and mark are created. The beheaded people BEGIN to show up in Rev. 15. So you tell me: How do you Move the days of GT from chapters 15 and 16 to the seals? Magic?

You don't. What you don't yet understand is the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. There is no tribulation in chapters 15 and 16. That is the wrath of God.

Additionally, the tribulation of those days will not begin at the 7th trumpet. The tribulation of those days is over before the 1st trumpet is blown.

 

[iamlamad]

Translation...........There will be only one time when there are signs of the sun and moon and the stars fall from heaven. But since I can't figure out that Revelation is not in order I will have to pound a square peg into a round hole. See, there, it fits.

Well we see these signs in Rev 6:12-13. Please show the verses in Revelation where these signs occur 7 years later.

Please show the verses in Matthew where the signs occur before the 70th week.

 

[Berean Tim]

Please show the verses in Matthew where the signs occur before the 70th week.

I never said or meant to apply Matthew 24:29-31 was before the 70th week. My view is in Matthew Jesus quotes Isaiah 13 and 34. John quotes Joel 2 both speaking of the Day of the Lord. Jesus says in Matthew "After the tribulation of those days" clearly not before the 70th week.